Opinions on Snowball Items

[quote=Jebus McAzn]I'd like to use this thread to gather some information, opinions, and viewpoints on the usefulness/practicality of snowballing items ([[Leviathan]], [[Mejai's Soulstealer]], and [[Sword of the Occult]]) for a guide I'm writing. You will be given credit for anything you contribute.[/quote]

[quote=nand]I personally don't like rushing them, since they leave you too squishy compared to something like a Rod of Ages, and the AP / gold without stacks is very, very poor - meaning it's hard to get those first few stacks compared to how much damage you'd do with, say, a blasting wand and amplifying tome for the same price. They also tend to put a huge crosshair above your head saying "kill me and I'll be useless". Nonetheless, they are the most cost-efficient AP/AD items in the game even at a minimum number of stacks, and when coupled with an item like Rabadon's Deathcap it skyrockets into insane levels. Graphs provided for proof and reference.* [img]http://ompldr.org/vNnpyeQ/efficiency.png[/img] * Do not recommend using these to decide on item choices since they disregard all other stats an item may have.[/quote]

[quote=B-Wong]"Win harder" Get em later in the game when you know you're doing well and it's just another situation like the Elixirs or Baron: You're doing good already, just win even harder.[/quote]

[quote=caucheka]as has been said rushing them is so worthless. it only makes the game harder because dieing would implement a huge penalty. if you want one get it late game. or just do what i do and not get them.[/quote]

[quote=Zeprido]I've actually sold my 18 stack mejai's for rabadon's cuz I needed more AP and couldn't get to the 20 stack mark. I'd say stackables usefulness starts to wane late game. I rarely if ever see anyone stacking a leviathan, for me its not cost efficient for the amount of health it provides, and would only be worthwhile if you reached 20 stacks for damage reduction. Also this all depends on which champion you are playing. For instance if you are playing Twisted Fate, and have CDR runes and at least 1 CDR item, you can easily reach max CDR. The only reason to buy mejai's here would be for the cheap AP, maybe selling it later down the line for a better item. I only see them good for 2 reason, your doing so well that stacking just makes sense since you can work up 20 stacks, you're a support/tank champion who nets quite a bit of assists and can work up the stacks slowly throughout the game.[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]What are your opinions on early game champions rushing snowball items - especially Mejai's - in order to get a huge advantage early game and turn the tide? Is this viable, or is it better to get a different item?[/quote]

[quote=Xaioli]Leviathan : Great for tanks that can hit 20 stacks for SURE. I only get this if I am for sure that my team is competent and can participate in team fights, and not let me die. If you can't hit 20 stacks, don't get Leviathan. Sword of the Occult : This is a great item for AD users. However, I don't suggest getting Sword on squishy champions like Twitch and Ashe. As hard carries, getting your snowball going is easy, but when you die, you will lose a lot of stacks, and it will be a bit more difficult to re-accumulate those stacks that you just recently lost. No one wants to re-feed you back your stacks. Mejai's Soulstealer : This is a great item for AP users. Since most of the casters are squishy, this is an item that's sort of risky to grab. Many mages do a lot of damage, but are squishy, and stuns/snares will destroy them. Your stacks will fall, and it will be difficult to re-accumulate because no one wants to re-feed your stacks back. Only get this if you are for sure that you won't die a lot. Basic Rules for All 3 Items: When it comes to snowballing items, only get these if you are for sure that your team can help you get kills/assists. If you make a lot of silly mistakes that will get you killed, don't get these items because they will just make you lose more stacks. If you are skilled with your champion, and can control it easily, get it. These items will give you a huge boost on your enemies if you master your champion. Now people ask me, You know how to play Twitch well, why don't you get Sword of the Occult? Twitch is very squishy, and can easily be destroyed. Even with my defense items, my HP is still low, and nukers/anti-carries can make me pay for getting a Sword of the Occult, and slap me in the face for wasting my money. I'm not saying that SoC is bad, but teams will take any squishy champions that are stacking any chance they get. That rules goes for almost every other champion when it comes to Mejai's and Sword of the Occult. Leviathan is a different thing since tanks primarily use it.[/quote]

[quote=B-Wong][quote=Jebus McAzn] What are your opinions on early game champions rushing snowball items - especially Mejai's - in order to get a huge advantage early game and turn the tide? Is this viable, or is it better to get a different item? [/quote] It doesn't work unless you've actually played your character for a very long time and know what the hell you're doing, and even then, you always have bad games where the item would just be a detriment.[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]In my responses to this thread, I will not be taking a particular side, but will argue for whatever I see fit. Don't worry if it seems like I'm purposely trying to argue against you - because I'll be trying to argue against everyone in this thread. This will hopefully give me some good material for my guide :P [quote=Xaioli] Leviathan : Great for tanks that can hit 20 stacks for SURE. I only get this if I am for sure that my team is competent and can participate in team fights, and not let me die. If you can't hit 20 stacks, don't get Leviathan.[/quote] Could I have some examples? I know of very few, if any tanks that can hit 20 stacks reliably. Also, the role of the tank is to protect the carry - oftentimes this means dying so they can escape. In that sense, isn't Leviathan the worst stacking item of the three since it's designed to suit a character that is more likely to die early-game than others? I do, however, understand the rationale of Leviathan late-game, since tanks are focused less in those phases. Still, if you're in a scenario where your carries are focused down and only the tanks are left, that Leviathan isn't really all that helpful anyway. [quote=Xaioli]When it comes to snowballing items, only get these if you are for sure that your team can help you get kills/assists. If you make a lot of silly mistakes that will get you killed, don't get these items because they will just make you lose more stacks. If you are skilled with your champion, and can control it easily, get it. These items will give you a huge boost on your enemies if you master your champion.[/quote] In this scenario, you're already winning - you have the premise that your team can help you get kills/assists. In that sense, if you're already winning, doesn't it make more sense to get a Bloodthirster/Rabadon's/Randuin's instead of the appropriate stacking item? Both will secure your victory just as well - in a winning scenario, you really have to make some stupid mistake in order to lose, and no item will save you there (apart from maybe Zhonya's or QSS). [quote=Xaioli]Now people ask me, You know how to play Twitch well, why don't you get Sword of the Occult? Twitch is very squishy, and can easily be destroyed. Even with my defense items, my HP is still low, and nukers/anti-carries can make me pay for getting a Sword of the Occult, and slap me in the face for wasting my money. I'm not saying that SoC is bad, but teams will take any squishy champions that are stacking any chance they get. That rules goes for almost every other champion when it comes to Mejai's and Sword of the Occult. Leviathan is a different thing since tanks primarily use it.[/quote] This brings up another point I was going to write about - priority targets. Twitch is extremely high-priority in team fights. He's almost always the first to get focused - as soon as he destealths, all enemy fire shifts to him (unless you've got a really good tank on your team with fantastic CC). In that sense, since you're already playing a high-risk playstyle, doesn't it actually make more sense to get Sword of the Occult? The same applies for other high-priority champions like Veigar, Annie, or Fiddlesticks. [quote=B-Wong] [quote=Jebus McAzn] What are your opinions on early game champions rushing snowball items - especially Mejai's - in order to get a huge advantage early game and turn the tide? Is this viable, or is it better to get a different item? [/quote] It doesn't work unless you've actually played your character for a very long time and know what the hell you're doing, and even then, you always have bad games where the item would just be a detriment. [/quote] I know that you've brought this up before, but when does getting a stacking item early-game outweigh the benefits of getting a regular item? If you're confident in your playstyle, you won't need the stacks. So from what I see, the only appropriate rationale for getting snowball items is under the very thin line of "I'll lose if I build my regular build, but I'll win if I build snowball". That almost never happens. Again, I'm not trying to pick on anyone, I'm just providing counterarguments to provoke thought. :P[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995]I usually cringe when I see a guide that has a snowball item in the core item build. I never get snowballs. Ever. The way I see it, snowballs don't give you a chance to get back on your feet like another item might. If you're feeding like mad, maybe buying that rylai's will net you a few kills and then you'll snowball THAT into a few tower kills while the enemy team is low on champions, which might give you a chance to win a game back. I don't like to take the chance with a snowball. The other thing is a psychological effect: the "I totally could've helped my team and sacrificed myself for an assist or two, maybe even a kill, but my stacks are too important." I usually get really irritated when i lose my meijai's stacks, and have you ever seen a jerk of a player call a feeder out on his terrible playing? Well, they usually don't recover after that because they're too angry/depressed/irritated. Meijai's is to me as jerky LoL players are to the feeders. I really just sort of throw myself at the enemy in a vain attempt to get kills. So, I think that the risks outweigh the rewards. As for guides go, I already mentioned I don't like guides with meijai's in the main items section, but a section exclusively for snowball items might be acceptable, with risks/rewards outlined.[/quote]