OTG's SoloQ Tier List (Patch 4.20)

[quote=Jack Rubino]well he said thats mostly from bronze to low plat. Fiora works quite well there.[/quote]

[quote=XeresAce]Zyra at the very bottom of tier 2 support? No. [[Sona]], [[Lulu]], [[karma]], [[Vel'Koz]] and arguably [[leona]] are all weaker than zyra atm from my experience. Reasons: Sona - she's in a clunky spot right now. She's super, super squishy and can either be a slight poking annoyance (except for the fact that Nami, Zyra, Zillean, Vel'koz and even Lulu poke better than her) OR a heal bot (except for the fact that Nami, Soraka and Arguably Zil (lolchronoshift) heal for more =D) There's no real reason to even play her considering how other supports outshine her badly Lulu - Lulu feels incredibly weak right now. Her q is harder to land than most poke abilities, her mana goes down the drain super fast and she takes a LOT of retaliation while poking vs a ranged support. She's still good given the right circumstance (laning vs a melee support for example) but she gets out-shined at pretty much everything at this point :/ Karma - Karma is a lane bully and unless you get substantially ahead shes as useful as a brick post laning phase. If you're vs a sustain support you really shouldn't be given the chance to get ahead in the first place and in longer/bigger fights other supports with superior cc and AoE damage completely outdo her. Vel'koz - Sure, he has damage but he's squishy as heck and has to practically sacrifice any support items bar sight-stone to be relevant while someone like zyra only needs Liandry's to function as a secondary damage dealer. Leona - She feels kinda clunky right now and with supports like Morgana, Janna, Thresh and Nami at the top her strongest feature (decent engage and 19 year lockdown) goes down the drain pretty easily. EDIT: For ADC's I think twitch> graves and vayne because he does a heck of a lot more AoE AND single target damage than graves and because similarly to vayne he has to get 6 before he really starts rolling but he actually has some lane presence[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]I disagree with a few of your points there. [[Zyra]] loses lane pre-six to a good portion of those picks above her and there's really nothing she can do about it because she's even less useful when behind than you claim [[Karma]] (who has superior utility) is. [[Zyra]] is way less consistent than, say, [[Vel'koz]]. She has less range than he does overall and she only becomes more of a threat post-six by which point she will likely have lost lane to him. Also she has lower base damage overall than he does with comparable scaling and cooldowns (in lane, particularly) for the most part, so if anyone needs to forgo support items for AP to remain relevant outside of their CC, it's her. Though neither of them really build pure support anyways. Also [[Vel'koz]] plays much better against picks like [[Nami]] and [[Morgana]] than [[Zyra]] does. [[Karma]] counters [[Nami]] (among other things) better than [[Zyra]] does, has more utility, and is a far safer pick. She actually does remain useful if she gets behind in lane, whereas [[Zyra]] becomes an extremely squishy CC bot in lane when behind. Besides the fact that [[Karma]] is significantly less mana hungry than [[Zyra]], has higher base damage than [[Zyra]] on her poke (traits she and [[Vel'koz]] share), [i]and[/i] has similar CDs on her poke, which is already more consistent than [[Zyra]]' s. Should also mention that [[Soraka]] has overall higher base damage than [[Zyra]] does atm (forcing [[Zyra]] to build AP to be more relevant), which is problematic as [[Zyra]] doesn't have any sustain and only has marginally better CC pre-six...which again pretty well solidifies her as not that good, because [[Soraka]] is likely to be solidly mid-high tier 2 as is. [[Lulu]] should be tier 3, she's not a good support pick right now. [[Sona]] was honestly better before her rework, currently she's not better than a lot of picks. Should be lower. [[Leona]] should be lower too.[/quote]

[quote=DisturbedFox][quote=Jack Rubino]well he said thats mostly from bronze to low plat. Fiora works quite well there.[/quote] maybe if you're smurfing yeah, but if not then there's no way you're going to dominate equally skilled opponents with a champion that is only good for counterpicking in some situations[/quote]

[quote=OTGBionicArm]@Pancakes, I think [[Draven]] is pretty cheese now. He doesn't like the current itemization, he gets shut down way too easily and is rather hard to effectively play. He's also pretty much food to most things with multiple gap closers ([[Kha'zix]] for instance). [[Sivir]] at least has the spell shield and team wide zerg ult to not die and be useful even if she's behind. @Mastrer, [[ryze]] mid is pretty much only a counerpick to certain melee champs. @Jani, I rated [[Jinx]] so highly because of both her snowballing, reletive safety in lane due to rockets and her ability to absolutely gut towers (No other ADC can touch her in this field). Give Jinx an inch and sh'll take a mile, in turrets. I already explained [[Draven]] but [[ezreal]] probably could be moved up a bit. Problem is his terrible laning phase. I admit that I am a terrible ADC, and when I play it by force, I play [[Ezreal]]. I tend to lose lane then somehow cheese my way to victory by KS'ing. I don't think that makes him very strong for a lower elo player. Koreans think he's godlike still tho. Idk. As much as I love [[Varus]], he's pretty much bruiser food even with his ult, and GMD as pointed out many times how he pretty much loses all trades before like, level 4. @Jack Rubino, [[Urgot]] builds full DPS. He does lots o damage and can fuck up ADCs quite hard (his exact job description). Think of him as an anti-marksman. He only gets shoveled into that role because he overtakes the marksman's spot of your team. He still kinda sucks tho. Even new [[Sion]] makes fun of him. @Nickname, [[Swain]] don't carry and I don't know what crack you be smoking, cause [[Maokai]] don't die to birds mang. @Fox, Yea, I agree with the mid lane stuff after looking over the list again. Rated them too highly based off snowballing. Same with Fedora. @Xeres, I don't think [[Zyra]] is better than any of those. Mostly because she's harder to play nd easier to get gibbed with if caught out. She also has that issue of only doing well with flat AP items. Even [[Vel'Koz]] can get away with support item purchases better. [[Twitch]] has suffered a lot from nerfs. His laning phase feels like crap now, and even [[Vayne]] can trade better than him early on for the most part. [[Vayne]] and [[Graves]] are also safer than him with built in mobility, especially now that it takes bloody forever to go into stealth for the rat. I already talked to Nameless about the support stuff.[/quote]

[quote=XeresAce]You guys... I can't argue right now but I'll pm you both with my opinions on the matter because right now this just seems like blind statements[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD]First of all, making a tier list based on rating is just silly. A champion is either good or bad and that has nothing to do with rating, just as how a guide isn't good or bad based on rating. Now that I've got that cleared up, let's examine this. [b]AD Carry/Marksman[/b] [indent]Most of it is decent, except for a few things. [[Jinx]] is not tier 1; her lack of mobility and dominance in the laning phase keep her out of that tier. [[Corki]] is tier 1. While is late-game sure isn't the best, his early- and mid-game dominance sure as hell make up for that. Tier 2 is just [[Caitlyn]], [[Jinx]], and [[Twitch]]. With [[Twitch]] being at the top, and [[Caitlyn]] at the bottom. Tier 3 should be [[Ezreal]], [[Graves]], [[Vayne]], and [[Draven]]. Everything else is tier 4. Depending on who you ask, this varies, but [[Ezreal]] is around high tier 3, low tier 2 (assuming 4 tiers). [[Ezreal]] deals poorly with the current metagame right now, and just lacks damage. [[Graves]] lacks range, and his burst isn't enough to make up for his somewhat shitty late-game. He's not really worth playing. [[Vayne]] is a monster late-game, but still has a shitty early- and mid-game. She gets crushed by nearly any adc who isn't [[Ezreal]] or [[Ashe]]. [[Draven]] still has lane dominance and showball potential, but that's pretty much everything. Late-game he's non-existent because he dies in two seconds due the lack of mobility.[/indent] [b]Support[/b] [indent]I suppose some will argue, but I really think [[Morgana]] lost her tier 1 status. She became tier 1 because she countered the other tier 1 champions ([[Thresh]], [[Leona]], [[Braum]]) but those fell out of favour, thus [[Morgana]] did as well. She's solid tier 2, but that's it. [[Zilean]] isn't tier 1 either. He's a solid support at this point, but his utility and damage aren't as high as most supports, and he is forced to get a tear, which hurts if you're behind. [[Sona]] and [[Lulu]] aren't tier 2 atm. [[Sona]] simply doesn't make up for her squishiness with damage any longer, and [[Lulu]] is just a bad support right now. She runs out of mana faster than everyone else really. [[Fiddlesticks]] is garbage, move him to tier 4.[/indent] [b]Mid[/b] [indent]Ah, my field of expertise. [[Xerath]], [[Ahri]], [[Akali]], [[Ziggs]], and [[Kassadin]] are not tier 1. They are all tier 2, except for [[Akali]], who is tier 3. [[Katarina]] and [[LeBlanc]] are trash tier, like tier 3 at least. They have play and snowball potential, but don't let that mask the fact that they're just terrible. [[Viktor]] is too early to place after his buffs. [[Jayce]] is a bad mid-laner. While he can do fine in a lot of situations, you just don't pick him there. His lane dominance is gone, and he offers no ability to control the lane against mages. [[Annie]] is trash, tier 4. [[Anivia]] and [[Karma]] are tier 2 champions. They might not be played, nor fit the meta all that well, but they're still good. [[Azir]] is too early to place, especially with all the bugs going about. All the other placements seem sort of okay, though it's tough considering you have 4 tiers.[/indent] [b]Jungle[/b] [indent]Funny how this list contains the most-played champions in worlds whereas none of the other lists do. I wouldn't call J4 and Eve tier 1; they still have noticeable flaws. Considering your 4-tier system I'd move [[Volibear]], [[Hecarim]], [[Wukong]], [[Udyr]], [[Skarner]], [[Amumu]], and [[Fiddlesticks]] to tier 3. They all have serious flaws and get their butts kicked by tier 1. [icon=Fiddlesticks]Fiddle and [[Udyr]] are high tier 3 though, they have some potential. [[Riven]] is tier 2, she's pretty good. [[Zac]] is tier 4, he really can't clear anymore.[/indent] [b]Top[/b] [indent]Unsure about [[Nidalee]]'s spot after these nerfs. [[Lulu]] isn't tier 1, she has serious flaws. She can still work very well, but she's not on the level of the big four. [[Jax]] is utter shit, tier 4 (tier 3 wouldn't put him in the right perspective). [[Rengar]], [[Fiora]] (almost putting her tier 4), [[Akali]], [[Renekton]], [[Gragas]], [[Shyvana]], [[Wukong]], and [[Malphite]] are all tier 3. I will give [[Jarvan IV]], [[Jayce]] and [[Kayle]] the benefit of the doubt. [[Azir]] too early to place imo, but current playtests suggest tier 2. I think [[Swain]] and [[Singed]] can be tier 3, they are alright. [[Trundle]], [[Shen]], [[Heimerdinger]], [[Olaf]], [[Tryndamere]], and [[Vayne]] are tier 4. I'm inclined to put [[Darius]] and [[Vladimir]] there as well, but giving them the benefit of the doubt.[/indent] I suppose this is fine for now, can't come up with more.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=XeresAce]Zyra at the very bottom of tier 2 support? No. [[Sona]], [[Lulu]], [[karma]], [[Vel'Koz]] and arguably [[leona]] are all weaker than zyra atm from my experience. Karma - Karma is a lane bully and unless you get substantially ahead shes as useful as a brick post laning phase. If you're vs a sustain support you really shouldn't be given the chance to get ahead in the first place and in longer/bigger fights other supports with superior cc and AoE damage completely outdo her. Vel'koz - Sure, he has damage but he's squishy as heck and has to practically sacrifice any support items bar sight-stone to be relevant while someone like zyra only needs Liandry's to function as a secondary damage dealer. [/quote] [[Zyra]] isn't strictly better than any of those champions, but she's also not significantly worse. Out of the three (i.e. [[Karma]], [[Vel'Koz]], and [[Zyra]]), you could say that [[Karma]] has the highest consistency. She's safer, less squishy, and her harass is the easiest to land. [[Vel'Koz]] is more consistent than [[Zyra]] due to his slow being spammable, easier to hit than any of her abilities, and definitely has a lower mana cost. The fact that [[Vel'Koz]] has to dedicate his entire build to building ap to be useful is just something you get out of nowhere. I've seen most high rated [[Zyra]] players build nothing but ap (except for the sightstone) because they could, and it's arguably the most efficient build. [[Vel'Koz]] would have great damage with just Liandry's, just no one does that because buying 4 support-y items doesn't fit his style, the same applies to [[Zyra]] and [[Karma]]. [[Zyra]] offers superior burst damage, and overall packs the most utility out of the three, but is also the most vulnerable. Sure Vel is about as squishy, but his abilities are more spammable and easier to land, thus making him more consistent. Both fulfil about the same role, with [[Zyra]] offering more CC for teamfights, and [[Vel'Koz]] offering more damage; they have a different niche. Regarding better than [[Leona]]; eh it's tough to compare both as they fulfil completely different roles. [[Leona]] is overall most consistent, and much more resilient in the sense that it's much easier to bounce back. She, however, does struggle more against the tier 1 picks. I do agree that [[Zyra]] is stronger than both [[Sona]] and [[Lulu]]. Frankly I think both are terrible atm.[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard][quote=XeresAce]You guys... I can't argue right now but I'll pm you both with my opinions on the matter because right now this just seems like blind statements[/quote] I realize some of my statements (like saying [[Karma]] is more useful when behind) are somewhat personal opinion, but at the same time it felt like some of your statements are equally blind. You're not giving credit where it is due and ignoring the fact that [[Zyra]] is significantly harder to utilize properly and far easier to punish than champions like [[Karma]] and [[Vel'koz]]. They're all solidly tier 2 and the three of them are about the same level of good.[/quote]

[quote=RottedApples]no love for [[taric]] QQ[/quote]