I usually just choose based on situation and if your backline > their backline. I wouldn't protect 0-3 ally ADC if I can trade for the 3-0 enemy adc for example but sometimes it might be better to stay with the ally ADC.
"A person giving you advice isn't perfect and has their own shortcomings but they may give you the piece that you're missing."
In my opinion, this is very situational and you have to be able to discern how your fights have been going + how that fight started + team comps + who are you playing.
My personal experience on this:
As you know, I main Swain, who is a natural frontliner since he's pretty tanky midgame while dealing a nice chunk of damage. This would mean he should be in the frontline or even getting into their backline, if possible, to murder some carries.
However, things I must consider:
- What is the support and how does that player play it: a lot of people can play champions like Leona, who has amazing engage and pretty nice lock, but you don't always see the Leona players help/peel for their carries. Many Leona players will try to give you the backline, leaving yours exposed. Who is peeling for your carries? Are they safe from assassins or enemy tanks? Sometimes, playing Swain, I might have to use my W and Q to save my ADC rather than diving in.
Other times, the support is a mage and he/she decided to go full ap. That's two carries instead of one, even if one of them was supposed to support. Can they peel for themselves?
- Who are the enemy divers and how strong are them: there are divers that are generally easy to kite with 1-2 champions, depending how fed both parties are and what kind of cc/mobility is at play. Udyr or Garen, per example, can often be dealt with with two champions, so you can dive the enemy team without much concern (of course you must consider if your team has been able to deal with them before, etc). But if their divers are assassins, I can also stay behind and help deal with them ASAP (assassins are generally squishy and don't deal well with tons of CC) and then shift to the rest of their team.
- Cooldowns: can you capitalize on major cooldowns blown by the enemy team? (summoner spells, AoE engage/disengage, ultimates, etc). If you catch someone off-guard, taking them out ASAP can be a lot more efficient.
- Is your carry even worth peeling for? (they position poorly and are feeding and you can trade for the enemy carry easily)
- Is your champion even good at peeling? You mentioned Garen, but he's actually not very good against various types of divers since his CC is basically his silence.
Try to focus on how the teamfights have been going and how well you're soaking/dealing damage. As the game progresses, it's natural that you might have a harder time killing or even surviving the enemy backline by yourself. You have to be able to perceive where everyone is and where you might be more useful
My personal experience on this:
As you know, I main
Swain, who is a natural frontliner since he's pretty tanky midgame while dealing a nice chunk of damage. This would mean he should be in the frontline or even getting into their backline, if possible, to murder some carries.However, things I must consider:
- What is the support and how does that player play it: a lot of people can play champions like
Leona, who has amazing engage and pretty nice lock, but you don't always see the Leona players help/peel for their carries. Many Leona players will try to give you the backline, leaving yours exposed. Who is peeling for your carries? Are they safe from assassins or enemy tanks? Sometimes, playing Swain, I might have to use my W and Q to save my ADC rather than diving in.Other times, the support is a mage and he/she decided to go full ap. That's two carries instead of one, even if one of them was supposed to support. Can they peel for themselves?
- Who are the enemy divers and how strong are them: there are divers that are generally easy to kite with 1-2 champions, depending how fed both parties are and what kind of cc/mobility is at play.
Udyr or Garen, per example, can often be dealt with with two champions, so you can dive the enemy team without much concern (of course you must consider if your team has been able to deal with them before, etc). But if their divers are assassins, I can also stay behind and help deal with them ASAP (assassins are generally squishy and don't deal well with tons of CC) and then shift to the rest of their team.- Cooldowns: can you capitalize on major cooldowns blown by the enemy team? (summoner spells, AoE engage/disengage, ultimates, etc). If you catch someone off-guard, taking them out ASAP can be a lot more efficient.
- Is your carry even worth peeling for? (they position poorly and are feeding and you can trade for the enemy carry easily)
- Is your champion even good at peeling? You mentioned
Garen, but he's actually not very good against various types of divers since his CC is basically his silence.Try to focus on how the teamfights have been going and how well you're soaking/dealing damage. As the game progresses, it's natural that you might have a harder time killing or even surviving the enemy backline by yourself. You have to be able to perceive where everyone is and where you might be more useful
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Thanks Joxuu and Falseogod. I appreciate seeing the thought process that goes through a higher level players mind about why they are doing what they are doing. I know I am accounting for some, but not all of those things and I'll be a better player when I am accounting for more of them.
E.g. agree on late game that on matter how tanky you are a reasonably fed ADC is going to poke big holes in you, so you may have to alter your tactics once they have some AD + Atk Spd + Armor Pen. But until they have the Armor Pen. Have at them!
But I still struggle with threat assessment during team fights beyond, Caitlyn is 7/1/6 and at three items so needs to be a primary target.
Like the whole Rengar is super fed and can delete me in one round of abilities so if he appears he needs to eat a Condemn then I need to be ready to Tumble the Light Binding from Lux which is going to show up in the spot where I am standing while I pause to condemn Rengar is a step above my current skill level.
E.g. agree on late game that on matter how tanky you are a reasonably fed ADC is going to poke big holes in you, so you may have to alter your tactics once they have some AD + Atk Spd + Armor Pen. But until they have the Armor Pen. Have at them!
But I still struggle with threat assessment during team fights beyond, Caitlyn is 7/1/6 and at three items so needs to be a primary target.
Like the whole Rengar is super fed and can delete me in one round of abilities so if he appears he needs to eat a
Condemn then I need to be ready to Tumble the Light Binding from Lux which is going to show up in the spot where I am standing while I pause to condemn Rengar is a step above my current skill level.
You need to account for what counterplay tools you have for these threats. Rengar can be dealt relatively well if your team has 1-2 pink ward trinkets and at least 1 reliable CC source that can stop him from even killing you (or anti-killing sources like Kayle/Lulu ults if timed properly) even if he decides to go regardless of your team being able to see him in his ult (this excludes scenarios where he can coordinate with huge AoE CC and ignore your ward, but it can help you know where he is coming from and disengage from those tools as well. Think Sejuani ult). The pink ward thing is actually really important against rengar, because just the ability of targeting him can mean life or death.
I always get pink ward trinket if I'm up against vayne/rengar/akali/talon, I get that I could evolve the red trinket but this doesn't help
7/1/6 Caitlyn might be an incredible threat, but if her other 4 team mates die and you have enough tools to prevent her cleanup, you can take objectives and she can't contest. Maybe your team is able to zone her or take out her mates? Maybe you have an assassin and you can provide the opening for him/her to deal with Cait?
There's just a lot to consider, and most of it comes from experience and practice ;)
Sejuani ult). The pink ward thing is actually really important against rengar, because just the ability of targeting him can mean life or death.I always get pink ward trinket if I'm up against vayne/rengar/akali/talon, I get that I could evolve the red trinket but this doesn't help
7/1/6 Caitlyn might be an incredible threat, but if her other 4 team mates die and you have enough tools to prevent her cleanup, you can take objectives and she can't contest. Maybe your team is able to zone her or take out her mates? Maybe you have an assassin and you can provide the opening for him/her to deal with Cait?
There's just a lot to consider, and most of it comes from experience and practice ;)
FalseoGod wrote:
You need to account for what counterplay tools you have for these threats. Rengar can be dealt relatively well if your team has 1-2 pink ward trinkets and at least 1 reliable CC source that can stop him from even killing you (or anti-killing sources like Kayle/Lulu ults if timed properly) even if he decides to go regardless of your team being able to see him in his ult (this excludes scenarios where he can coordinate with huge AoE CC and ignore your ward, but it can help you know where he is coming from and disengage from those tools as well. Think Sejuani ult). The pink ward thing is actually really important against rengar, because just the ability of targeting him can mean life or death.
I always get pink ward trinket if I'm up against vayne/rengar/akali/talon, I get that I could evolve the red trinket but this doesn't help
7/1/6 Caitlyn might be an incredible threat, but if her other 4 team mates die and you have enough tools to prevent her cleanup, you can take objectives and she can't contest. Maybe your team is able to zone her or take out her mates? Maybe you have an assassin and you can provide the opening for him/her to deal with Cait?
There's just a lot to consider, and most of it comes from experience and practice ;)
Sejuani ult). The pink ward thing is actually really important against rengar, because just the ability of targeting him can mean life or death.I always get pink ward trinket if I'm up against vayne/rengar/akali/talon, I get that I could evolve the red trinket but this doesn't help
7/1/6 Caitlyn might be an incredible threat, but if her other 4 team mates die and you have enough tools to prevent her cleanup, you can take objectives and she can't contest. Maybe your team is able to zone her or take out her mates? Maybe you have an assassin and you can provide the opening for him/her to deal with Cait?
There's just a lot to consider, and most of it comes from experience and practice ;)
For champions that can travel while invisible I've sometimes found an
Oracle's Lens to be more useful than a Vision Ward. However, using them both in conjunction (drop the pink ward where you are fighting and then pop the Oracle's if they use their invisibility to retreat) is even more reliable.Thanks for the pointer on asking yourself what counter tools you have available.
Was playing a game last night were I got my
Tryndamere going with an early gank and their team had no hard CC. GG. :-)For Akali, I pretty much won't gank one without a pink ward unless my laner or I have some reliable way to force her out of
Twilight Shroud.There is indeed a lot to consider. Thanks for offering up some of your insights!
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Do you stay on their carries or come back and peel for yours?
E.g. with say