Canoas
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<Member>
@Xiron
No. It's not "He thinks the Godfather is one of the best movies", it's "the Godfather is widely accepted as one of the best movies ever". Whether you like it or not is completely irrelevant.
@JMastiff
1. That's obvious. If you make a complex piece of **** it'll still be a piece of ****, no matter how complex it is. However, this is not the case, and I never used the word complex. Graphics will simply look better when played in the medium they're designed for.
2. But without story what's the point? Story will still be the most important factor in a single player game.
3. If you read the reviews instead of the rating you'll notice that the users do not believe the game deserves a 9/10 or above. The only reason they voted 9/10 and 10/10 was due to the price. If you're rating the price of the game for the content it provides then I'll accept the rating, but that's not what we're discussing here.
Also, I already knew that a game without a story can be entertaining, that's obvious. And tetris doesn't convey emotions and set thinking patterns.. Still, my point was that the best single player games will have a story.
No. It's not "He thinks the Godfather is one of the best movies", it's "the Godfather is widely accepted as one of the best movies ever". Whether you like it or not is completely irrelevant.
@JMastiff
1. That's obvious. If you make a complex piece of **** it'll still be a piece of ****, no matter how complex it is. However, this is not the case, and I never used the word complex. Graphics will simply look better when played in the medium they're designed for.
2. But without story what's the point? Story will still be the most important factor in a single player game.
3. If you read the reviews instead of the rating you'll notice that the users do not believe the game deserves a 9/10 or above. The only reason they voted 9/10 and 10/10 was due to the price. If you're rating the price of the game for the content it provides then I'll accept the rating, but that's not what we're discussing here.
Also, I already knew that a game without a story can be entertaining, that's obvious. And tetris doesn't convey emotions and set thinking patterns.. Still, my point was that the best single player games will have a story.
JMastiff
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<Member>
1. Given the game is good that won't matter that much, the vision is just a part of it. I doubt anyone really bothers with that since there is too much difference in what tech people have.
2. You're just used to that system. I don't usually play games for story because in most cases it is bad. As I said, it's too obvious that they create a story just to push you forward and scream out their unfulfilled writing ambitions. I'd rather spend 10 hours reading a good book than 40 playing some big-*** story-driven rpg. Why? Because it's more cohesive, and, oh wait again, I can read about 2 to 3 books in that time or watch 20 movies. Problem solving and game-system is more important aspect to explore in my opinion. But there seeem to be some movement in non-gameplay based, story-driven interactive media though, that's also something to look at. http://dear-esther.com/
Tetris
Of course it is not obvious, because it wasn't explored well enough before it was finished to do it right.
And my point is that those games are still not very good.
2. You're just used to that system. I don't usually play games for story because in most cases it is bad. As I said, it's too obvious that they create a story just to push you forward and scream out their unfulfilled writing ambitions. I'd rather spend 10 hours reading a good book than 40 playing some big-*** story-driven rpg. Why? Because it's more cohesive, and, oh wait again, I can read about 2 to 3 books in that time or watch 20 movies. Problem solving and game-system is more important aspect to explore in my opinion. But there seeem to be some movement in non-gameplay based, story-driven interactive media though, that's also something to look at. http://dear-esther.com/
Tetris
Quoted:
Also, I already knew that a game without a story can be entertaining, that's obvious. And tetris doesn't convey emotions and set thinking patterns..
Of course it is not obvious, because it wasn't explored well enough before it was finished to do it right.
Quoted:
Still, my point was that the best single player games will have a story.
And my point is that those games are still not very good.
Canoas
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<Member>
JMastiff
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<Member>
I think they have enormous potential but I feel it is wasted most of the time. I like Braid very much ( http://braid-game.com/ ) and generally agree with design decisions made there. In fact it was the game that changed my view because I used to think it is impossible to create a valuable work in so strictly entertainment-oriented environment.
Canoas
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<Member>
That game doesn't seem anything special, at least from the trailer it doesn't bring anything new to gaming. Most of that is just the reload feature.. The only difference is that instead of you being able to do it your character does it as well. Nothing new at all, it's a quicksave/quickload with a cool animation. No one does it because that will make the character himself immortal, which will break the story.
JMastiff
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Canoas
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<Member>
No, that's the opposite of what you want. There's 3 ways you can handle saving/loading:
1. You can only save at specefic areas, so you have to try your best from that point forward or your character will die. This means that effort has a huge impact and death is something to be "feared".
2. You can save/load at any time. This means that you can easily rewrite your mistakes, but this has no influence on the character. Your character is not God-like at all, which does not break the story.
3. Your character is immortal. Effort has no value, if you screw up your charcater will not die because whatever you do your charcater has the power to correct your own mistakes.
I like 1 and 2 depending on the game. I can't imagine a game where 3 would be better. It'll just become easy and pretty much pointless. Your skill and tactics are not rewarded, the only thing that's rewarded is persistency. That's simply not what I look for in a game, what I want is a challenge, something that forces me to be efficient and precise, something that forces me to think and whatever I choose to do will have consequences, so I'll learn the consequences and improve my gameplay.
Fortunately most games are like that, even LoL. By playing I'll learn what's better for each champion, what moves are useful, what tactics work, how players think and react and how I can use that against them.
1. You can only save at specefic areas, so you have to try your best from that point forward or your character will die. This means that effort has a huge impact and death is something to be "feared".
2. You can save/load at any time. This means that you can easily rewrite your mistakes, but this has no influence on the character. Your character is not God-like at all, which does not break the story.
3. Your character is immortal. Effort has no value, if you screw up your charcater will not die because whatever you do your charcater has the power to correct your own mistakes.
I like 1 and 2 depending on the game. I can't imagine a game where 3 would be better. It'll just become easy and pretty much pointless. Your skill and tactics are not rewarded, the only thing that's rewarded is persistency. That's simply not what I look for in a game, what I want is a challenge, something that forces me to be efficient and precise, something that forces me to think and whatever I choose to do will have consequences, so I'll learn the consequences and improve my gameplay.
Fortunately most games are like that, even LoL. By playing I'll learn what's better for each champion, what moves are useful, what tactics work, how players think and react and how I can use that against them.
JMastiff
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<Member>
Dude, just play that game lol. It's just an example, not "the only right way". It's a good work within it's borders, there are other examples ( http://the-witness.net/news/ ) how you could make a completely different game and it would be also cool. I Almost felt like I was some sort of fanatic now.
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2. Like I said. It's a matter of choice. Makers of LA noire decided to go that way and that's fine. I just said game substance doesn't need story to convey an idea and in most of the games it is an artificial way to create simple motivation.
It was to show you the idea a game without a story can be entertaining and can convey certain emotions and set thinking patterns, you said it had to have 9/10. Metacritic is one of the most important tools in game industry. I said I didn't agree with those ratings, it was your request. But as always there is some good stuff there.