An itemization Dilemna - Would like some your...

[quote=utopus]Context: My [[morgana]] guide has a very strange build path, with the itemization path being [[zhonya's hourglass]] -> [[rod of ages]] if you are very ahead. I've supported my itemization path with [url=https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1q3nGRh1VJ5DfSceMQKh4TjHEk0oid9h_zgkPD-8voRU/edit]Photo Evidence[/url], that shows all of the games I have built Hourglass -> RoA in the past two months, and showing me losing only 1 game with it. People don't think that that is sufficient justification for my itemization path, as shown here: [quote=Joxuu] Here is where I am at with the RoA vs your opinion: You say it's efficient item if you're ahead -> Instant stats are much better if you're ahead so you will continue to have the advantage. You get the RoA after receiving ~4k-6k gold so it would take around 7.5k-9k to complete it. To earn that amount of gold (in a average game) as a support the game must have lasted over 30 minutes or more. The sustain passive is not a big deal at this point of the game and you would need to be at around 40 minutes to get full usage of RoA. You're forced to stay with 60 AP, 450 Health (not so useful 450 mana) for 10 minutes in mid game. Like it doesn't do anything at this point. You won't get lots of damage and you won't get lots of defense either. It's just too slow item and you should get zhonyas -> Mikael's or otherway around. [/quote] I have resorted to mathematics to try and clear any confusion, and show exactly how beneficial Hourglass -> RoA is. [url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19FTeQJUEOD4sfPHKhyKwUFRscNZZTazxFza8ZjPVZHM/edit#gid=0]Here is a link to my Spreadsheet.[/url] I calculated that going Hourglass -> RoA (no stacks) with my rune & mastery loadout results in a support that is 20-30% more tanky than the standard Hourglass -> Mikael's Support morgana. As RoA gets full stacks, I found that the resulting tankiness increases to around 30-40% more tankiness compared to the standard build. I was wondering if you guys think this is sufficient enough to stop people from blindly challenging my itemization path on the grounds that RoA "won't do anything to your tankiness" If you do not think that this is sufficient support for my item choices, what do you think I can do to reduce the amount of criticism my guide gets for advocating this item path?[/quote]

[quote=TheKut]I get them and you should totally not get a RoA on any support. You should help your team and a RoA doesn't do that. Mikael's does.[/quote]

[quote=Jovy]Of course RoA makes you tankier than the standard build does, but you don't get Mikael's and etc for the tank stats, do you? I think you can get away with virtually any build in normals (I realize one of the games was ranked, ya), so the photo evidence doesn't help your case much. If the "I built XXX and won lane/the game" argument worked every time then this would be a legitimate Thresh build [img=http://puu.sh/bGwha/f0ed82a049.jpg][/quote]

[quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0]If I can play Leona suppp and not run out of tank items to use there are probably better options on Morgana too. I honestly cant figure out why you're comparing RoA to Mikaels instead of Locket, Randuins or Banshees Veil anyway.[/quote]

[quote=sirell]Well, some reasons I wouldn't get it has been touched on already. Basically, [[rod of ages]] is a fairly selfish item. At that point, past your abilities, the only team utility you have is [[frost queen's claim]]. Say your [[black shield]] is down, having a [[mikael's crucible]] assures you that you can remove other hard CC and make clutch heals to priority targets (@Jimmydoggga which is why I think RoA vs Mikael's is the better comparison for [[morgana]]). It's pretty clear that tank-wise, [[rod of ages]] is the better choice. It translates to better stats, stronger abilities and a continual strength growth over the next 20 minutes. The most major objection, I would think, is that it's a very high-budget item (and [[zhonya's hourglass]]+[[sightstone]]+[[frost queen's claim]] is quite high budget already). In addition, it's a selfish item, so it doesn't benefit your team in particular. Whilst I can understand where you're coming from, I don't think I can agree on the grounds that I don't feel that it's a support's role to invest selfishly (unless you're playing some sort of carry support or you're roflstomping). As to helping you reduce criticism on your guide, well, honestly I don't think there's anything you can do, because it's really a non-meta style and, in a way, it's easily disagreeable pretty much because of this reason. Adding to that, people would find it disagreeable for the above reasons. Put the two together and you've got yourself an item build pathing that is very hard for people to accept. Even if it worked for you in ranked, I would still be hesitant to accept that it's the most optimal build to make.[/quote]

[quote=utopus][quote=MissMaw]Of course RoA makes you tankier than the standard build does, but you don't get Mikael's and etc for the tank stats, do you? I think you can get away with virtually any build in normals (I realize one of the games was ranked, ya), so the photo evidence doesn't help your case much. If the "I built XXX and won lane/the game" argument worked every time then this would be a legitimate Thresh build[/quote] Would photos of only ranked games be more persuasive? I only did the last two months with morg b/c I was getting tired of clicking 'more games', on op.gg haha [quote=sirell]The most major objection, I would think, is that it's a very high-budget item (and [[Zhonya's Hourglass]]+[[Sightstone]] + [[Frost Queen's Claim]] is quite high budget already). In addition, it's a selfish item, so it doesn't benefit your team in particular.[/quote] In my spreadsheet, I calculated that the cost of building RoA is approximately equal to the cost of building [[mikael's crucible]]. I can see why it'd come off as a selfish item, not providing your team with extra forms of CC, or CC removal. I think that the increase in tankiness is a huge factor that some of you may be overlooking. With being 30% tankier than a non-RoA [[morgana]], you've essentially turned yourself into an off-tank. Being able to take more hits, you will have a nice cushion of health, with which you can land a better [[soul shackles]] on your opposing team - which kinda does act as a sort of peel. The difference between landing a 4 man [[soul shackles]], and say, a 2 man [[soul shackles]] is pretty staggering. The former provides so much AoE CC, that you can mitigate quite a bit of damage. I'd think that RoA would alleviate some pressure from your front lines in that you can draw focus away from your tanks and towards you ([[zhonya's hourglass]] should prevent you from getting focused down.) It'd be naïve to say that the CC removal & heal is compensated with the increased magic damage shield that [[black shield]] gets from RoA. However i think it'd also be shortsighted to blow off the defensive stats that RoA gives as insignificant; The extra defense allows you to cast a better [[soul shackles]], which consequently yields better peeling for your carries as well as less pressure on your front line[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]Even bigger problem than the cost imo: unless the game goes to like an hour you'll never finish stacking it.[/quote]

[quote=Vorcia]I don't see the point in building ROA at all. You're a support, you're going to just ult and Zhonyas pretty much ensures that your ult will finish. After you finish your ult, so what if you have a ROA? You're just a support, you won't have the build to make yourself a threat and you'll just get ignored by the other team while your carry dies because he didn't have a Mikael's cleanse to save him.[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard][quote=utopus]In my spreadsheet, I calculated that the cost of building RoA is approximately equal to the cost of building [[mikael's crucible]]. I can see why it'd come off as a selfish item, not providing your team with extra forms of CC, or CC removal. I think that the increase in tankiness is a huge factor that some of you may be overlooking.[/quote] [[Rod of Ages]] costs 350 gold more than [[Mikael's Crucible]] and its components are bulkier in terms of price and less valuable individually. It doesn't take a spreadsheet to see that. Other than what other people have mentioned (utility > personal stats on supports basically), I don't see how building RoA makes any sense as a defensive item. If you wanted to live through team fights to get good ults off or whatever, you'd buy [[Banshee's Veil]] and [[Randuin's Omen]]. Furthermore, the whole point of [[Zhonya's Hourglass]] is that it allows you to get an ult off without needing to pour a lot of gold into defensive stats. How is waiting till 40 minutes to get 630 health from RoA even remotely comparable to getting Banshee's or Randuin's?[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]Building [[Rod of Ages]] anything except first item is already a bad idea. You're building it second in a role that already gets less gold than other roles (generally speaking). I really don't know why you came to the forums with this, people already told you its extremely bad when you asked on vent. It's a bad build; as for the specifics Psiguard pretty much explains it perfectly[/quote]