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Banner of Command on Supports?

Creator: buttercup February 3, 2014 5:05pm
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buttercup
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Hi guys, I would like to know if you guys think Banner of Command is still a viable item on supports, since I don't see it built very often, but as per S4 the AP has been increased twofold....




NateDog13
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buttercup wrote:

Hi guys, I would like to know if you guys think Banner of Command is still a viable item on supports, since I don't see it built very often, but as per S4 the AP has been increased twofold....


Honestly, I think its trash. It doesn't really bring anything to a team. Sure it gives a little split pushing to a support and gives them 80 AP, but 15% more damage for minions does... what for you? The argument would be better sieging. But frankly if the enemy team has decent waveclear you can say goodbye to that bonus. All in all it really just isn't worth it Its one of those ***** and giggles items due to every other support item beating it in usefulness and gold efficiency :x
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DKitten
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To me, it's a choice between Banner of Command or Morellonomicon. They both give ~80AP and 20% CDR.

So it's either +MP/sec and Grievous Wounds passive or pushing power. Carries typically don't want you pushing, and most people push only if they can easily waveclear, which supports typically can't. You're better off being in a teamfight and letting someone else push a lane when it comes down to it.
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Barph
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Banner is more a cdr item for zyra mid/heimer than it is for supports, very niche item.
I'm Varph, who is Barph anyway?
Dychronius
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The last time I got a banner of command was doing ultimate bravery with some friends...

Yeah, it's that useless.

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sirell
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I bought it once a very long time ago in a MOBAFire Inhouse to end out a game. In fairness, it worked well, but...

There's just really no reason to buy it. Players with good awareness will just know by looking at the minimap whether or not a lane will push. In which case, a promoted minion is rarely needed anyway. And in virtually all other cases, a promoted minion won't be needed; you already have an ADC.
Mooninites
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It's good in siege comps. But as others have said Morellonomicon is just a better alternative.

Looking at gold efficiency though it's not that good. 80 AP plus 20% CDR for roughly 2400 gold. It's really hard to place a tangible gold value on the Siege minion and damage increase for minions. I think it's fair to say that the promotion is equivalent to that of an inhibitor minion, but difficult to say if it is or what it's worth.

Looking at the raw stats of 80 AP and 20% CDR:

80 AP is roughly 1720 gold worth of stats (taking two Blasting Wands

Because there are no items that give just CDR, I'll look at CDR via the Fiendish Codex which offers 10% CDR. We have to remove the AP. I could use Amplifying Tome but since we used Blasting Wand for the above Ability Power to gold ratio i'll stick with it.

Blasting Wand - 40 AP, 860 gold.

860 / 4 = 215. 215 * 3 = 645. That gives us the 30 AP. So Fiendish Codex is 820 gold.

820 - 645 = 175 gold for 10% CDR. Double it to reach 20% CDR = 350 gold.

350 gold + 1720 gold = 2070 gold. The item itself costs 2400 gold. You're not even breaking even in terms of stats. You're essentially paying 330 gold for a promoted minion and 15% increased minion damage, which is conditional to you standing in range of minions. Now I think the promoted minion is quite good, don't get me wrong, I just don't think it's worth the item slot especially when you're not breaking even on gold. Especially consider this in a team fight say near baron, the increased minion damage and cannon minion will have no factor.

I think it's also important to compared to Morellonomicon's efficiency.

Morellonomicon offers 75 AP, 20% CDR, and 12 mana regen for 2200 gold. Plus a healing reduction, which is pretty intangible.

Using the same model:

Using Blasting Wand as the standard for AP to gold efficiency:

40 AP = 860 gold. 860 / 8 = 107.5 (dividing by 8 to get it into integrals of 5 AP rather than 10).

107.5 * 7 = 752.5 + 860 = 1612.5. We've already determined that 20% CDR is roughly 350 gold worth of stats so 1612.5 + 350 = 1962.5


Using a Faerie Charm to measure mana regen to gold. 3 mana regen is worth roughly 180 gold. 180 * 4 = 720 (3 mana regen * 4 = 12 mana regen).

1962.5 + 720 = 2682.5 gold in terms of raw stats

> plus whatever gold value healing reduction has. Healing reduction has more of a tangible value than % damage increase to minions plus a cannon minion will have, but it can also vary widely depending on the enemy champions that have grievous wounds applied to them and how efficiently you can apply them. I.E. applying it to a Dr. Mundo with ult on is much more efficient than say a Karthus without spell vamp or baron. Also someone like Zyra can apply the debuff much easier than say Nami. It's kind of impossible to put gold values on that type of stuff. But none-the-less you're still getting way more stats than you pay for.

Obviously this isn't perfect math, because as you can see there is a difference in gold efficiency between items, such as Blasting Wand and Amplifying Tome, but this is pretty standard, because the more gold you invest in an item, generally the more gold/stat efficient it is (although not always the case). Plus, looking at Morellonomicon is 12 Mana Regen really 720 gold worth of stats? Theoretically yes, but Faerie Charm is pretty inefficient and there are a lot of times in which mana regen has no value at all, such as when your mana bar is full or in combat, but at the same time you could make the argument that CDR really isn't effective unless you use spells, but that's a bit of a slight and makes this **** way too complicated.

tl;dr - Banner of Command doesn't even break even in terms of raw stats per gold, you have to value the % damage increase and super minion as 330 gold worth of intangible stuff. Compare that to something like Morellonomicon where you get more raw stats than you pay for plus healing reduction.

So would I build it? Probably not unless I was in a siege comp, it's not efficient and it's not practical in most situations which makes it pretty bad


Please let me know if I did my math wrong too
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dragon00bicus
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Soraka own Banner of Command. She can split-push thanks to her Q and this decently. Not to mention her W greatly boosts a minions armor while also healing it, so the 2-hit wonder caster minions will take 5 hits after healing it when it receives 1 shot.

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buttercup
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Thanks for the answers C:

I already have Morellonomicon in my guide, and I was wondering if this item was any better since it was changed, just so that i have more flexible options. I guess in the end I'm going with Twin Shadows for now :)




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Banner is a bad option. Since to maximize it's effect you need to do it when they are really close to your side of the base, to amass minion, then stage a clash/skirmish elsewhere while the empowered do their thing, which is far inferior compare to how a top laner can steamroll a lane. It may work in premade but a big niche IMO.
Morello is a better option, still quite a niche since most support almost cap their CDR with talisman and mastery already, very helpful when you are dealing with Mundo or Fiora. If you wish for some damage, a liandry is more suitable, CDR then go for locket.
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