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So many know how to 1vs2, but how to 2vs1?

Creator: Basinator November 20, 2012 8:39pm
Basinator
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This is a legit question.

What if your enemy does know halfway how to do 1vs2?

I ask this also because I just had a match where a random went duo top with me. Just saw champ, didnt see he didnt pick Smite.

We have been Xin and Fiora vs Jax. Enemy jungler was another Xin.

So what did my Xin do so that I blame him so much? He AAed creeps at the start, lasthitted a bit later on, then when they have been almost at Jax's tower he continued lasthitting. I was trying to zone Jax by running in front of the creeps, but this damn Xin just stand behind them. So Jax jumped on me. He attacked me. And Xin was farming or joined the fight when I was alrea.

I ended up with having 3 7 7 with Fiora, having build 2 gp 10 (HoG, Avarice), FM, Mercs. Not to mention Jax snowballed more or less even at the lane and then the rest into the game. Oh, and of course you coudln't expect to buy wards from our Xin either. So I bought about 10 wards during the game while holding 2 GP10 and ended up with 65 CS at 40 minutes.

But what was my original idea when I recognized it was 2vs1?
There have been two options;

1. One of us jungle wtihout Smite. Xin refused, stating he is bad at jungling while I never jungled with Fiora. So I decided to go wtih #2:
2. Try to take the biggest advantage out of it. Worst idea ever with a random. They won't listen. They don't know how to capitalize on 2vs1 either.

So what was the plan?

First; Zone Jax. Run in front of the creeps so he cant lasthit.

Second; All-ins. 2vs1, no problem bro. Ok, a problem for the enemy, even if it is Jax.

Third; Wards, obviously.

Fourth; DO NOT PUSH OR LASTHIT AT THE START. This is something I wanted to try out. But randoms never listen anways. Why don't lasthit? Because Jax can't either. The lane will get frozen (more or less). Why is this a good idea? Because you can deny the enemy champ pretty much ALL the exp and force 2vs1 fights easier. He can't escape to his tower so easily. My idea with this was to get a huge level advantage over the solo laner. But guess what, my Xin AAed the creeps.

Fifths; If you push close to the enemy tower, don't go half-way. If they are already in range of it, push like hell. Don't let him have the safety of his tower without paying for it in CS (tower hits on creeps).

(Sixths; IMHO 2vs1 is not a bad idea always. If you decide during champ sel, preferrably with a premade, take champs that can take advantage of the situation. Pokers, strong early game, CC)

What do you think about this, also about my strategy points (quite interested in about the EXP zoning opinions)? Did I do everything right this match, judging from this thread/post?
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Your first mistake was not paying attention in champion select. You shouldn't realize in load screen that you don't have a jungler after you're already stuck with whatever champion you picked. If you know how, it would probably have been better if you jungled.

Secondly, both your top lane champs get kind of countered by Jax. You can chalk that up to bad luck though since it was blind pick.

Third, 2v1 top lane is a legitimate strategy if it's a lane swap (top and bot), not just having no jungler. Having no jungler is vastly inferior to having a jungler. You should try to get someone to jungle on your team or do it yourself.

Even if your Xin didn't push and you tried to zone Jax (let's say you succeeded), your lane would just push anyway due to your last-hits. Jax can farm under tower pretty well and can delay any aggression you'd try to make with his E. Since he doesn't have to share farm or experience with anyone else, he probably had an easy time keeping up in farm and outleveling your duo lane. Couple that with the fact that Jax is quite strong against both Xin and Fiora and you've got yourself a pretty awful lane matchup.

Your "strategy" for the lane sounds all right in theory, but in practice it simply wouldn't work without coordination or at least a competent lane partner. Fiora and Xin aren't particularly strong 2v1 champions either. Honestly the solution is to just have a jungler. Real 2v1 lanes are usually support+AD, not just two top laners.
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Basinator
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Quoted:
Your first mistake was not paying attention in champion select. You shouldn't realize in load screen that you don't have a jungler after you're already stuck with whatever champion you picked. If you know how, it would probably have been better if you jungled.

I can't recall correctly how this happened, I might said we still need a jungler and he picked. Maybe he even had Smite in it but switched the summoner spell. Just recognized shortly after the game started, actually.


Quoted:
Third, 2v1 top lane is a legitimate strategy if it's a lane swap (top and bot), not just having no jungler. Having no jungler is vastly inferior to having a jungler. You should try to get someone to jungle on your team or do it yourself.

That's what I would prefer as well, TBH. Bot should be someone who can 1vs2 (Yorick, Urgot?, Pant?, Ezrael (IMHO), Cait?). Although I am not sure if it is necessary that the ADC goes top. But traditional killer lanes top can work as well (Riven + Malph are pretty mean especially after 6, killing you easily near or under your tower). But you should have at least a concept for it.

Quoted:
Even if your Xin didn't push and you tried to zone Jax (let's say you succeeded), your lane would just push anyway due to your last-hits. Jax can farm under tower pretty well and can delay any aggression you'd try to make with his E. Since he doesn't have to share farm or experience with anyone else, he probably had an easy time keeping up in farm and outleveling your duo lane. Couple that with the fact that Jax is quite strong against both Xin and Fiora and you've got yourself a pretty awful lane matchup.

No. In my concept I wouldn't even LASTHIT. I would deny myself gold to zone the enemy out of exp. Actually, I made the experience if I am zoning, mainly with melee champs, the enemy gets to more or less the same CS under / near his tower. So zoning is obviously only successful if you can do it constantly (middle of the lane, ranged harass under tower).
Thus, in a scenario where you both get your ults while the enemy champ is at level 4 or the jungler tries to gank while you are at high HP and 1-2 level above the enemy laner each, it should pay off. If you get a certain level advantage while freezing the lane it might end up permakilling the enemy laner and jungler. Theory of mine, needs some practice.
But you can't rely on randoms for listening to you anyways.

TBH, very often even my premades aren't following my anti-metas, and if they did, enemies often did swap lanes as well :p

BTW: Sure that Xin's Q gets affected by Jax' COunter Strike? I recall that Teemo's Blind doesn't affect Xin's Q.
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Support+AD lanes can do a pretty good job of kiting, zoning and safely farming against top laners. While denying the enemy gold and XP, you also have a pretty safe lane for your AD. That's usually going to be preferable to sticking your AD in a 1v2 lane.

I get the theory behind your XP-only idea, but I don't think it would work well in practice. For one, you would still push anyway. When you attack an enemy champion and draw minion aggro, the enemy minions aren't hitting yours, they're hitting you instead. That means your minion wave will take less damage than they deal, so it'll push. There really isn't a good way to fully freeze the lane from level one, especially not as a melee, where you'll generally take longer to drop minion aggro. Another problem is that you'd be starving two members of your team of gold while only one member of the enemy team will be weak. That's going to hurt you overall in the long term, even if you could perfectly zone your opponent (which I explained you basically can't).

Jax counters the **** out of Fiora. Xin might be able to get his knockup off, but I'm pretty sure Jax won't take damage from his 3 talon strike if he has counter strike on. He's still strong against both of those champions. They rely too much on autoattacks to be able to fight him efficiently.
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Quoted:
Support+AD lanes can do a pretty good job of kiting, zoning and safely farming against top laners. While denying the enemy gold and XP, you also have a pretty safe lane for your AD. That's usually going to be preferable to sticking your AD in a 1v2 lane.

Why farm if you can kill 2vs1?

I recall. I was Tryndamere top vs Teemo & Blitz. No way to wi...survive this ****. Couldn't even spin away since the knockup still hit me during (trying) spinning away. Of course you can also take something like Graves or Ezrael as duo partner.

@XP: Well, if you run a killerlane as I suggest you should have someone with CC. If you open up with a strong/decent CC on a 2vs1 basis you should get a kill very often. You could also let your enemy get about 5 CS at the start so the creeps are going more to your own tower.
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You usually won't kill good players, but you can zone them pretty easily in a 2v1. The higher level you get, the more cautious play you'll see from players in a disadvantaged lane. It's perfectly possible to play a safe 1v2, you just won't get much farm.

Though if you can kill your opponent, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that most of the time, they won't let you.
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