Sword of the Divine vs The Black Cleaver

[quote=nand]Ever since the [[Last Whisper]] patch, I've replacing it by a [[Sword of the Divine]] in my builds since I needed an item that granted ArP and Aspd. However, after the .108 patch, [[The Black Cleaver]] also grants exactly those stats: AD, ArP and Aspd. Ever since then I've been curious as to how well it compares to its cheaper variant, SotD. I finally got round to re-doing my calculations. Numbers are given in damage per second, calculated by (damage per hit * no. hits in 5 seconds) / (no. of hits / attack speed). First build: IE + (?) + PD + 2xBT @ 18 Second build: IE + (?) @ 11 (Since SotD is nearly 1k gold cheaper than TBC, I added in an extra [[Zeal]] for the second calculation on its side) Enemy constants: Squishy = 70 AR, 50 MR; Nonsquishy = 100 AR, 70 MR; Tank = 340 AR, 210 MR SoTD: vs squishy: 1687 vs nonsquishy: 1328 vs tank: 495 TBC: vs squishy: 1836 vs nonsquishy: 1419 vs tank: 504 SotD: vs squishy: 439 vs nonsquishy: 348 vs tank: 133 TBC: vs squishy: 506 vs nonsquishy: 393 vs tank: 141 As you can see, the TBC uniformly excels over the SotD, even when taking its 1k higher price point into consideration. I've updated my guide accordingly and I recommend you re-think its value as well.[/quote]

[quote=Freki]Ok for your reasoning, but SotD is a good early game item, you can go for it as a first item for people like xin or tf, rushing TBC is much harder. So on my POV, it is a little bit like confusing between apples and oranges. So your calculation can be proven true on an end game perspective . Btw, change the zeal for a brutalizer, and it should top of TBC for a little price difference.[/quote]

[quote=nand]Rushing TBC is stupid. IE is the first item you should rush on any AD carry, followed by TBC as per my calculations. I don't get a Brutalizer much myself because you should already be hitting 0 armor with all your runes and masteries, and you'll just have to sell it later on (Youmuu's Ghostblade is a shit item for auto-hit champions, Phantom Dancer shits all over it)[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]What are your opinions on other on-hit champions that can abuse items like SotD and Madred's? For example, Kog'Maw and Twisted Fate are both viable options to build SotD+Madred's Bloodrazor (and sometimes Wit's End) just to spam on-hit damage. Black Cleaver isn't as relevant there, is it?[/quote]

[quote=HoLyHiraKo]Some good calculations there. I prefer usually Black Cleaver but when goes to tanks i also buy Divine.[/quote]

[quote=nand][quote=HoLyHiraKo] Some good calculations there. I prefer usually Black Cleaver but when goes to tanks i also buy Divine. [/quote] For tanks you should be getting Last Whisper [quote=Jebus McAzn] What are your opinions on other on-hit champions that can abuse items like SotD and Madred's? For example, Kog'Maw and Twisted Fate are both viable options to build SotD+Madred's Bloodrazor (and sometimes Wit's End) just to spam on-hit damage. Black Cleaver isn't as relevant there, is it? [/quote] The calculations I provided included the 100 damage per 4 hits, so the only difference it would make is the 30% extra attack speed. It's probably better than black cleaver in that case, since your damage is largely magical either way and thus not affected by armor.[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995]This is compelling, but I've recently been playing Caitlyn with SotD for the very reason that I can use the SotD active + use [[ace in the hole]] for some extra armor pen against a champion who's running away. With the Black Cleaver, I can't get the armor pen stacks on champions before I'd want to use my ultimate. My question is, do you (or pretty much anyone who wants to answer my question) think that's a good idea? And secondly, with the recent change to Caitlyn's ultimate, does that make armor pen ineffective on it?[/quote]

[quote=nand][quote=Trojan995] This is compelling, but I've recently been playing Caitlyn with SotD for the very reason that I can use the SotD active + use [[ace in the hole]] for some extra armor pen against a champion who's running away. With the Black Cleaver, I can't get the armor pen stacks on champions before I'd want to use my ultimate. My question is, do you (or pretty much anyone who wants to answer my question) think that's a good idea? And secondly, with the recent change to Caitlyn's ultimate, does that make armor pen ineffective on it? [/quote] It still deals physical damage and thus is by all means affected by armor penetration, even if it doesn't apply on-hit effects or miss anymore. I can't comment on Caitlyn builds since I personally have not found a good build for her, but SotD [i]might[/i] work better with her passive thanks to the 30% more attack speed. I wouldn't rely on her ultimate for damage personally though since it practically never hits, so I'd get the better item for auto-attacks.[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995][quote=nand] [quote=Trojan995] This is compelling, but I've recently been playing Caitlyn with SotD for the very reason that I can use the SotD active + use [[ace in the hole]] for some extra armor pen against a champion who's running away. With the Black Cleaver, I can't get the armor pen stacks on champions before I'd want to use my ultimate. My question is, do you (or pretty much anyone who wants to answer my question) think that's a good idea? And secondly, with the recent change to Caitlyn's ultimate, does that make armor pen ineffective on it? [/quote] It still deals physical damage and thus is by all means affected by armor penetration, even if it doesn't apply on-hit effects or miss anymore. I can't comment on Caitlyn builds since I personally have not found a good build for her, but SotD [i]might[/i] work better with her passive thanks to the 30% more attack speed. I wouldn't rely on her ultimate for damage personally though since it practically never hits, so I'd get the better item for auto-attacks. [/quote] Yeah that's probably a good idea. I was unsure, because I heard somewhere that her ultimate now deals magic damage and I hadn't really double checked it. With this in mind, I think I'll be going for TBC from now on. TBC always looks like [url=http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/games/burningcrusade/]The Burning Crusade[/url] to me...[/quote]

[quote=Chronosking]personally i love them both though i rarely rush a black cleaver save for when i go corki just for the ridiculous armor reduction i can pull out, in most cases i prefer to rush the sotd specially against teemos and anyone with a blind, cause even if there are better items for the same stats nothing beats beasting through a teemo blind with its active to rip the poor misguided yordles face clean off[/quote]