TF + Double Clairvoyance Strat - Anyone else...

[quote=Adonikam][quote=animorte] I promise you, I could take almost any of the champions I play and still do just as good no matter what summoner spells I have. They really, really [u]shouldn't[/u] put you at that much of a disadvantage. I say, as long as you know what the enemies have, you should do just fine...unless you don't pay attention. [/quote] That's right they shouldn't but they will. How are you going to stop Alistair Flash/Pulverising you? How are you going to stop Blitzcrank Flash/Grabbing you? What are you going to do when you're vsing a Denyplank and you get jungle ganked all game? You WILL be at a disadvantage if you don't take positioning tools. It's not a question of skill, it's just a fact.[/quote]

[quote=animorte]I love playing against skill-shot champions. I very very rarely get hit. Dodging a skill-shot is not difficult...not by any means. Also, if you are in such bad positioning that you actually need extra escape tools, you should start playing a 'Flash' champion. Silences and stuns also work god-like wonders against people trying to attack you.[/quote]

[quote=Adonikam]There's a reason Ghost/Flash/Cleanse is taken on every ranged carry in high elo. Dodging skill shots is easy? Ok, how about Sion's stun? Oo right you just had better positioning? What if he flashes towards you? Oh right you were really really far back. Have fun farming creeps from way back there.[/quote]

[quote=Booshido]just imagining ashe without flash high elo getting facerolled. I use flash and ignite of brand and 9/10 ive used that flash agressively, flashing in to stun and nuke, like annie uses flash for first blood.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Adonikam] There's a reason Ghost/Flash/Cleanse is taken on every ranged carry in high elo. Dodging skill shots is easy? Ok, how about Sion's stun? Oo right you just had better positioning? What if he flashes towards you? Oh right you were really really far back. Have fun farming creeps from way back there.[/quote] Hah, well said. Kinda reminds me of this: [quote]"Avoiding death is the best. So you don't really need Good Hands unless you're expecting your champ to die." said people. "Avoiding to get hit is the best. So you don't really need Perseverance unless you're expecting your champ to get hit." said me.[/quote][/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Adonikam: Stun-locking is just another strat for winning games. All your arguments involve not having Flash/Ghost, but Flash/Ghost AND a stun/ganker. If teams have equal amount of stuns, it all depends on play style. If the Alistar/Blitzcrank are laning against a Janna and Twisted Fate, what then? They'll be annoyed as fck from the knock ups, shields, stuns, slows and harass. And what if that GP solo is against a Mordekaiser while allies constantly have the "ganker" under the Big-Brother-CV-Cam? I'll tell you what it means: The Flash/Ghost combo turns in putter in their hands. :P Flash/Ghost don't automatically insinuate the better set up. Used properly, stuff like Clairvoyance, Cleanse, Exhaust, etc can be far more effective. [b]Although Flash/Ghost IS the simpler set-up.[/b] Flash and Ghost are probably the easiest spells for typical LoL games, the learning curve for them is almost non-existent.[/quote]

[quote=animorte][quote=Adonikam] There's a reason Ghost/Flash/Cleanse is taken on every ranged carry in high elo. Dodging skill shots is easy? Ok, how about Sion's stun? Oo right you just had better positioning? What if he flashes towards you? Oh right you were really really far back. Have fun farming creeps from way back there. [/quote] Sion's stun isn't a skill-shot -.- Actual skill-shots that are directional where you don't simply click on the enemy. Actual skill-shots that take skill to hit... those can be easily dodged. Just because somebody has a stun doesn't mean they are that good at harrassing. And guess what... Sion used his 'Flash-stun' on me and now he is gonna get ganked because he doesn't have a CV, he is overextending, and he just used Flash so he could hit me once therefore he can't gtfo. Also, if you have allies worth anything, you shouldn't be worried about somebody's 'Flash-stun.' There are also counters...stun/Exhaust/shield/knock-up/etc... and CV so I can see it coming a mile away.[/quote]

[quote=Adonikam]I'm not saying Flash/Ghost I'm saying Flash/Ghost+Something else. Though Flash/Ghost is generally stronger. I still use Ignite/Flash on Tristana because you need to win your lane. I'm not saying you NEED positioning spells. I'm saying you WILL be at a disadvantage.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport][quote=Adonikam] Though Flash/Ghost is generally stronger. [/quote] As I said, they're just [b]simpler[/b], not stronger. :P What makes them seem stronger is the fact they're simpler, which leads to a higher frequency of players using it due to the ease of learning the skill. Although the learning curve is higher, reducing the users, non-Flash/Ghost spells aren't any weaker. A person with Cleanse + Exhaust can have the advantage over someone with Flash + Ghost simply because they play differently, which leads to a victory. It's the lack of learning that makes people prefer Flash or Ghost. :P (Excluding cases where a champion is dependent on a spell, such as Annie, Alistar, and Galio for Flash)[/quote]

[quote=B-Wong][quote=JunSupport] [quote=Adonikam] Though Flash/Ghost is generally stronger. [/quote] As I said, they're just [b]simpler[/b], not stronger. :P What makes them seem stronger is the fact they're simpler, which leads to a higher frequency of players using it due to the ease of learning the skill. Although the learning curve is higher, reducing the users, non-Flash/Ghost spells aren't any weaker. A person with Cleanse + Exhaust can have the advantage over someone with Flash + Ghost simply because they play differently, which leads to a victory. It's the lack of learning that makes people prefer Flash or Ghost. :P (Excluding cases where a champion is dependent on a spell, such as Annie, Alistar, and Galio for Flash) [/quote] Not really. Imagine this: Forget about your own team and think of it as a gank situation. Shen/Sion gank. He gets taunted and stunned, cleanses (again, forget about team, also forget about turrets entirely) and exhausts Sion. At this point he's already taken a lot of damage from such stun and also Shen should be throwing swords and shit all over the place. Imagine Sion took Flash/Ghost. Since Ashe has wasted her summoner spells, he can ghost and flash to catch up to Ashe for another stun, guaranteeing the kill (whatever situation you put Ashe in, she's going to be low health). If you want to factor in Ashe ult at the same then: Shen/Sion gank. Ashe cleanses, and ults, then exhausts Sion. Same shit happens, Sion flashes/ghosts to Ashe. Then imagine this: Sion/Shen gank on Ashe with Flash/Ghost. Sion walks up for the stun, shen goes in for the dash. But oh wait, there's this amazing summoner spell called flash, so as soon as Ashe sees Sion walking up she flashes away. Then she throws an ult behind her, then ghosts away. Seems like a pretty damn safe Ashe to me. It's different for every character but Flash/Ghost IS the stronger pick on a ranged carry given X situation. It allows you to escape (ghost/flash) and also gives you a great positional advantage at the same time (Flash).[/quote]