Views: 3501 Philosopher's Stone and Gold/10 Controversy
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I've never questioned my Starter Items and Core Items in my guides, but apparently some people do. No matter how I tried to explain why I prefer my way, all I get is comments like:
"Your argument is invalid."
"As a 1# guide on MobaFire you should teach people to play in the right way."
I get the sub-potential point, but this has been bugging me so I did some calculations on my own to prove my point why my way of starting with
Rejuvenation Bead+ Faerie Charm+2x Sight Wards isn't any worse than the more popular 3x Sight Wards + 2 Vision Wards + Potions way.
People asked for proof/valid argument so I hope this answers for them. At least I spent hours doing this, so please at least appreciate the effort even if we have differing opinions.
I have to say I'm not a math genious, but I did my best. In case I did calculate something totally wrong, please let me know (and preferably do the math yourself if you don't trust me). I did it the most simply way, not including last hits, assists or kills, because that's something we can't predict. The gold starts running from the point it does in the game.
In Summoner's Rift, the base gold is 16 gold/10 seconds. (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Gold_per_10)
My guide gold income is 21 gold/10 seconds without Philosopher's Stone and from the point when you get it it's 26 gold/10 s. That means 156 gold in 60 seconds.
What people suggested me was to change the gold runes into HP runes and not buy Philosopher's Stone as a first item (or at all in some people's opinions). Their gold income would be 16+2 from Greed
, which adds up to 18 gold/10 s.
Starting from the point when gold starts running:
2970-2160 = 810 gold difference in 20 minutes compared to having only gold masteries.
Base gold with aupport is 525 gold (when using Wealth
). I assume people use
Wealth
and
Greed
masteries.
Starter Items:
Rejuvenation Bead+ Faerie Charm= 360 gold
+ 2x Sight Ward= 75 gold
= 510, you're left with 15 gold.
After being 5 minutes into the lane, I'm not saying you should go back, but if you're pushing and feel like it, why not? You don't lose much exp if your lane is pushing anyway, but if the enemy is pushing, you don't need to go anywhere, because you're relatively safe at turret anyway. I have left my carry alone to farm when it's safe and 90% of the time they don't go suicide.
After 5 mins, you have gained passively 630 gold + that 15 gold you had left from starter items. That equals as 645 gold.
Having started with Faerie Charm+ Rejuvenation Bead your core item Philosopher's Stone costs 340 gold.
5 min base:
5 min gold gain 630 + starting gold = 645
645 - 340 ( Philosopher's Stone) = 305
305 - 2x sight wards 150g + 125g Vision Ward
= 5 gold
10 min base:
Again, I'm not saying you should go back after being another 5 mins in the lane, but this is just for example and usually I do. Second time I do go back, I buy myself a Ruby Crystal, 2x Sight wards and a Vision Ward and this is how I calculated the gold.
Gold gain for 5 minutes with Philosopher's Stone: 2.6x60x5= 780,
- 475g Ruby Crystal = 305
- 2x75g Sight Wards
- 125g Vision Ward
= 30g (+ couple second wait and get a Mana Potion if you want)
From here on Sightstone will be ready after ~3 mins, which means you'll have it after 13 mins (after gold calculating starts) without lasthits, assists or kills unless you decide to buy boots first or more wards or die at lvl1 without achieving anything.
This is how I do it and how I recommend to do it, because often you'll have either assists, kills or last hits so you might even afford to buy Sightstone straight at this point.
This is the way I was suggested I should teach people in my guides to play. Without gold runes and without Philosopher's Stone rush (or not picking it up at all) and aiming for getting Sightstone as your first real item.
Starter Items:
3x sight wards
2x Vision Wards
2x Potions 35g each for your own choice.
= 0 gold.
OR
2x Sight Wards
2x Vision Wards
2x Health Potions
2x Mana Potions
= 0 gold.
Passive gold gain for playing like this 18 gold/10 seconds. Like before, no last hits, assists or kills are calculated into this. (Not even the Pickpocket
mastery.)
5 min base
1.8x60x5 = 540
You get only 540 gold in 5 minutes after the gold starts running, which is why people told me it's horribly bad idea to go back so early. If you are rushing Sightstone it's no point going back at this point, because you can only afford Ruby Crystal and 1 Sight Ward and then you'd need to wait a long time to get another 500ish gold to get a Sightstone.
If you rush Sightstone you have to stay in lane for about 9-10 minutes before going back unless you get kills/assists. (972 gold at 9 mins.) If you plan on staying this long on a lane, you need them potions people suggested me.
So here I did the math about the difference with these two builds and how it differs in total gold gain, amount of wards and other stats right from the start up to 10 minutes into the game after gold starts running.
My Items at 10 minutes:
philosopher's Stone
sight wardsight ward
(and Mana Potion)
Total amount of wards: 6x sight wards, 2x Vision Wards and 1-2 Mana Potions
Gone back 1-2 times, 1st time at ~5 mins, bought a Philosopher's Stone.
The ward/Sightstone rush after 10 minutes:
(+ the wards you started out with if you didn't use them all yet)
Total amount of wards: 3x Sight Wards, 2 Vision Wards, 2-4 Ghost Wards.
Basically you can get Sightstone playing my way only 3 minutes later than the other (which has earned 324 gold in 3 mins I waited for Sightstone).
After these 13 minutes with my way having a Philosopher's Stone since 5 minutes, you'll keep getting slightly more gold afterwards, whereas with only gold masteries you'll be getting less gold from that point onwards excluding last hits, assists and kills.
With my start at 13 minutes you'll have 468-324= 144 difference in gold and 1 more item than with the Sightstone rush. In total with a Philosopher's Stone you lead with
5 min without philo 780 + 7 min with philo 1092 = 1872
- 1,8x60x13= 1404
= 468 gold
Total difference in earned gold so far is 468 gold.
Obviously this just the most basic way of calculating the difference between using Greater Quintessence of Gold runes and Philosopher's Stone and not using neither and it doesn't apply like this in the game, because supports kill wards, get assists, kills and even last hits occasionally so you'll most likely get all items listed above earlier, but in the case you get into a game where absolutely nothing happens before 15 minutes into the game (that happens sometimes), you'll have a headstart compared to the other support.
Sure, early game you lack vision, but I think people can manage to play safe for 5 mins. I don't like to aim for kills before farming properly and getting at least lvl4.
Another point I'd like to make that I tried out Faerie Charm+2x Sight Wards+ Vision Ward+2x Potions started which is really popular as well opposed to these, but I have to say that this way puts a support way behind unless you do aim for kills. In case you're forced to go back early you can't afford anything else than Rejuvenation Bead and Wards and not rushing Philo when starting out with either Faerie Charm or Rejuvenation Bead WILL put you behind in goins compared to the other support or compared to either of the starter ways listed above.
I'm aware I have this starter in my Janna guide, but when I have the time I'm sure to change it into something else.
If you managed to read this, feel free to comment. If you find some totally gamechanging mistakes in my calculations, let me know. Like I said I don't usually spend 4 hours calculating stuff and formatting it into a relatively readable form for people who question my choices, but this is all for those people who think my arguments don't have any point. If you still feel that way, then I at least tried. :)
No hard feelings.
"Your argument is invalid."
"As a 1# guide on MobaFire you should teach people to play in the right way."
I get the sub-potential point, but this has been bugging me so I did some calculations on my own to prove my point why my way of starting with
Rejuvenation Bead+ Faerie Charm+2x Sight Wards isn't any worse than the more popular 3x Sight Wards + 2 Vision Wards + Potions way.People asked for proof/valid argument so I hope this answers for them. At least I spent hours doing this, so please at least appreciate the effort even if we have differing opinions.
I have to say I'm not a math genious, but I did my best. In case I did calculate something totally wrong, please let me know (and preferably do the math yourself if you don't trust me). I did it the most simply way, not including last hits, assists or kills, because that's something we can't predict. The gold starts running from the point it does in the game.
Gold facts:
In Summoner's Rift, the base gold is 16 gold/10 seconds. (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Gold_per_10)
My guide gold income is 21 gold/10 seconds without Philosopher's Stone and from the point when you get it it's 26 gold/10 s. That means 156 gold in 60 seconds.
- 16 gold per 10 seconds passively
- 3 gold/10 second runes, Greater Quintessence of Goldx3
- 2 gold/10 seconds masteries
Greed
x4
- 5 gold/10 seconds Philosopher's Stone
What people suggested me was to change the gold runes into HP runes and not buy Philosopher's Stone as a first item (or at all in some people's opinions). Their gold income would be 16+2 from
Greed
, which adds up to 18 gold/10 s.Gold gain in 20 minutes:
Starting from the point when gold starts running:
- Without anything (no masteries, no gold runes, no philo or any other gold item): 1920 gold
- With masteries: 2160
- With masteries and runes (no Philo): 2520 gold
- With masteries and runes and Philosopher's Stone bought at 5 mins into the game (means stacking for 15 minutes): 2970 (means Philo gives 450 coins in 15 minutes)
2970-2160 = 810 gold difference in 20 minutes compared to having only gold masteries.
Gameplay:
Base gold with aupport is 525 gold (when using
Wealth
). I assume people use
Wealth
and
Greed
masteries.Starter Items:
Rejuvenation Bead+ Faerie Charm= 360 gold+ 2x Sight Ward= 75 gold
= 510, you're left with 15 gold.
MY WAY 10 MIN BASE:
After being 5 minutes into the lane, I'm not saying you should go back, but if you're pushing and feel like it, why not? You don't lose much exp if your lane is pushing anyway, but if the enemy is pushing, you don't need to go anywhere, because you're relatively safe at turret anyway. I have left my carry alone to farm when it's safe and 90% of the time they don't go suicide.
After 5 mins, you have gained passively 630 gold + that 15 gold you had left from starter items. That equals as 645 gold.
Having started with
Faerie Charm+ Rejuvenation Bead your core item Philosopher's Stone costs 340 gold.5 min base:
5 min gold gain 630 + starting gold = 645
645 - 340 ( Philosopher's Stone) = 305
305 - 2x sight wards 150g + 125g
Vision Ward= 5 gold
10 min base:
Again, I'm not saying you should go back after being another 5 mins in the lane, but this is just for example and usually I do. Second time I do go back, I buy myself a
Ruby Crystal, 2x Sight wards and a Vision Ward and this is how I calculated the gold.Gold gain for 5 minutes with Philosopher's Stone: 2.6x60x5= 780,
- 475g
Ruby Crystal = 305- 2x75g Sight Wards
- 125g
Vision Ward= 30g (+ couple second wait and get a
Mana Potion if you want)From here on
Sightstone will be ready after ~3 mins, which means you'll have it after 13 mins (after gold calculating starts) without lasthits, assists or kills unless you decide to buy boots first or more wards or die at lvl1 without achieving anything.This is how I do it and how I recommend to do it, because often you'll have either assists, kills or last hits so you might even afford to buy
Sightstone straight at this point.SIGHTSTONE RUSH
This is the way I was suggested I should teach people in my guides to play. Without gold runes and without Philosopher's Stone rush (or not picking it up at all) and aiming for getting
Sightstone as your first real item.Starter Items:
3x sight wards
2x
Vision Wards2x Potions 35g each for your own choice.
= 0 gold.
OR
2x Sight Wards
2x
Vision Wards2x
Health Potions2x
Mana Potions= 0 gold.
Passive gold gain for playing like this 18 gold/10 seconds. Like before, no last hits, assists or kills are calculated into this. (Not even the
Pickpocket
mastery.)5 min base
1.8x60x5 = 540
You get only 540 gold in 5 minutes after the gold starts running, which is why people told me it's horribly bad idea to go back so early. If you are rushing
Sightstone it's no point going back at this point, because you can only afford Ruby Crystal and 1 Sight Ward and then you'd need to wait a long time to get another 500ish gold to get a Sightstone.If you rush
Sightstone you have to stay in lane for about 9-10 minutes before going back unless you get kills/assists. (972 gold at 9 mins.) If you plan on staying this long on a lane, you need them potions people suggested me.Differences between the core items
So here I did the math about the difference with these two builds and how it differs in total gold gain, amount of wards and other stats right from the start up to 10 minutes into the game after gold starts running.
My Items at 10 minutes:
philosopher's Stone
sight wardsight ward
(and Mana Potion)Total amount of wards: 6x sight wards, 2x
Vision Wards and 1-2 Mana PotionsGone back 1-2 times, 1st time at ~5 mins, bought a Philosopher's Stone.
The ward/Sightstone rush after 10 minutes:
(+ the wards you started out with if you didn't use them all yet)Total amount of wards: 3x Sight Wards, 2
Vision Wards, 2-4 Ghost Wards.Conclusion:
Basically you can get
Sightstone playing my way only 3 minutes later than the other (which has earned 324 gold in 3 mins I waited for Sightstone).After these 13 minutes with my way having a Philosopher's Stone since 5 minutes, you'll keep getting slightly more gold afterwards, whereas with only gold masteries you'll be getting less gold from that point onwards excluding last hits, assists and kills.
With my start at 13 minutes you'll have 468-324= 144 difference in gold and 1 more item than with the
Sightstone rush. In total with a Philosopher's Stone you lead with5 min without philo 780 + 7 min with philo 1092 = 1872
- 1,8x60x13= 1404
= 468 gold
Total difference in earned gold so far is 468 gold.
Obviously this just the most basic way of calculating the difference between using
Greater Quintessence of Gold runes and Philosopher's Stone and not using neither and it doesn't apply like this in the game, because supports kill wards, get assists, kills and even last hits occasionally so you'll most likely get all items listed above earlier, but in the case you get into a game where absolutely nothing happens before 15 minutes into the game (that happens sometimes), you'll have a headstart compared to the other support.Other semi-irrelevant notes:
Sure, early game you lack vision, but I think people can manage to play safe for 5 mins. I don't like to aim for kills before farming properly and getting at least lvl4.
Another point I'd like to make that I tried out
Faerie Charm+2x Sight Wards+ Vision Ward+2x Potions started which is really popular as well opposed to these, but I have to say that this way puts a support way behind unless you do aim for kills. In case you're forced to go back early you can't afford anything else than Rejuvenation Bead and Wards and not rushing Philo when starting out with either Faerie Charm or Rejuvenation Bead WILL put you behind in goins compared to the other support or compared to either of the starter ways listed above.I'm aware I have this starter in my
Janna guide, but when I have the time I'm sure to change it into something else.If you managed to read this, feel free to comment. If you find some totally gamechanging mistakes in my calculations, let me know. Like I said I don't usually spend 4 hours calculating stuff and formatting it into a relatively readable form for people who question my choices, but this is all for those people who think my arguments don't have any point. If you still feel that way, then I at least tried. :)
No hard feelings.
Eeeh, hold on. I never said you were breaking rules, in fact I specifically mentioned that I had a problem only with those insulting halipupu or just making sarcastic comments that add nothing to the discussion and will only make people annoyed.
As far as comments with a negative tone goes, I think we allow quite a lot, but yes, I still think it is better not to show frustration / anger in your posts because it can sound disrespectful and all that leads to is others getting frustrated as a response, which makes it all the more likely that someone at some point is going to start insulting people.
Thank for very much Wayne for pointing this out. I also want to point out I don't see Bionic's comments offensive or particularly negative, but sadly I can't say the same thing about many others who previously participated in this argument.
@Bionic, I did listen to you and I pointed out why I'm not changing my ways, because I know how to adjust to different situations and many people should learn to adjust anyway. Season changes any time soon so no point in arguing. Like said: CLAIRVOYANCE TRINKET, HERE WE COME! :D
Once again, I'd like to point out that I have not once been insulting with any of my comments (except the using Hali's name as a verb, but that was a joke, and if people can't take jokes, that's just sad.)
I don't see how "being negative" is not ok. I'm allowed to express my frustration at someone simply not getting the things I am typing even when I go to great lengths to explain them in the simplest way possible to understand.
I get that you need to stop people from actually being insulting, Wayne, but sometimes people just need thicker skin about this stuff. If someone picks a fight, they better be ready for the backlash. "Please play nice" is the basic attitude I'm observing from you, the other mods and Mowen lately, no offense.
Eeeh, hold on. I never said you were breaking rules, in fact I specifically mentioned that I had a problem only with those insulting halipupu or just making sarcastic comments that add nothing to the discussion and will only make people annoyed.
As far as comments with a negative tone goes, I think we allow quite a lot, but yes, I still think it is better not to show frustration / anger in your posts because it can sound disrespectful and all that leads to is others getting frustrated as a response, which makes it all the more likely that someone at some point is going to start insulting people.
Doesn't mean it can't be significantly worse than that. Also, please, for the sake of everyone's sanity, use the word 'meta' correctly.
That doesn't mean your starting items are correct. A lot of supports can and will abuse your low ward count. If the enemy support starts with 2
I don't get why you won't listen to my point of view when I play in Plat II and you're Gold I.
@Pushing lane discussion:
You pretty much always intentionally push the lane when you're playing in a duo lane. It gives too many advantages not to. Early level 2, zoning, poking with superior creeps, forcing the enemy to cs under tower. If you push hard early, get level 2 and reach the enemy tower you've practically won the entire lane right there if you don't mess up. Frankly if you aren't trying to push early you're doing it wrong.
If you are pushing right from lvl 2, the enemy support won't be able to pink your lane, so you will have vision with 2 wards, but I still don't think it's a good idea to push hard with someone as immobile as Sona unless the enemy goes back or they're so low hp you'll have no problem getting a double kill even if you get ganked.
I still don't push with Q, because I don't spam it so hard that it would make us push. Like I said, time it carefully so that it will hit your target and even if it hits 1 minion, that doesn't make you push. You have to be spamming for it all day long to make your lane push alone (if the carry doesnt push) and I don't see how you'd have mana to do that. If I know I won't hit the enemy with Q I don't see why I should waste mana, but if they outposition themselves then I can obviously harass with Q and autoattacks. Sona isn't all about harassing with Q, she can use power chord and auto attacks as well. I've played like 2000 games as Sona over the 3 years, in Ranked 335 games this season, last seaon about 250 + all the normal games through the 3 years so I know her mechanics really well. She's all about timing.
Just because we have a difference in playstyle, I still don't see why my way would be wrong. Your explaining and "going to great lenghts" doesn't help, you know? It's my guides and my playstyle and there is simply nothing wrong in being sub-optimal, because Mobafire is a site where you share your own PERSONAL PLAYSTYLE, that CAN differ from the current meta made by asian pros.
Just give it quits already, season changes soon and I'm good to go for preseason with my current playstyle and starter items. Clairvoyance trinket, here we come!
You pretty much always intentionally push the lane when you're playing in a duo lane. It gives too many advantages not to. Early level 2, zoning, poking with superior creeps, forcing the enemy to cs under tower. If you push hard early, get level 2 and reach the enemy tower you've practically won the entire lane right there if you don't mess up. Frankly if you aren't trying to push early you're doing it wrong.
I don't see how "being negative" is not ok. I'm allowed to express my frustration at someone simply not getting the things I am typing even when I go to great lengths to explain them in the simplest way possible to understand.
I get that you need to stop people from actually being insulting, Wayne, but sometimes people just need thicker skin about this stuff. If someone picks a fight, they better be ready for the backlash. "Please play nice" is the basic attitude I'm observing from you, the other mods and Mowen lately, no offense.
Halipupu, even though I understand it might not be nice to have people disagree with you, in the end it's just that; just because several members have a different opinion than you doesn't mean it's suddenly a "********".
I'm not going to remove this or tell you to stop commenting because I think the discussion itself is fine, but guess what, you guys might end up finding that you do not agree with each other. If that is the case, do everyone a favour: accept it and move on.
Make him freeze lane then
Please read my damn previous posts before talking.