What am i doing wrong?

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=Out Of Pancakes]Something to keep in mind is that ArPen is never wasted: you can reduce your foe's armor below 0.[/quote] I haven't checked any of the maths but this part here sounds wrong. You can reduce enemy armor below 0 theoretically, but only with armor reduction, not armor penetration. It's the same with magic resist; with [[abyssal scepter]] you can reduce minion MR to -20 and multiply your damage dealt to minions that way, but magic penetration like [[sorcerer's shoes]] or [[void staff]] don't affect minions as they already have 0 MR, so you have no MR to penetrate. I was always under the impression that no one runs armor pen, or at least not FULL armor pen marks (let alone quints added on to that) in the jungle on any champion because it goes to waste on lots of jungle creeps. [quote=H4xDefender]every good rengar main (akaadian/chaosrain/pridestalker/dekar/ryan choi/dandy/reignover) runs armor pen because it simply helps you kill squishies easier[/quote] I can't account for most of those guys, but I looked through probuilds and checked the Rengar setup of all the respectable junglers I saw and none of them ran armor penetration. I checked Reignover and Dandy specifically; Reignover has no Rengar games that are available to see on probuilds, and Dandy ran a variety of pages ranging from full AD to AD + attack speed to AD + movement speed; but not a single armor pen rune in any of his games. As it sounds like Pancakes misunderstood the nature of armor penetration when doing the maths and I can't see any sign of anyone ever running armor penetration on jungle Rengar, for now I'd recommend sticking to AD unless someone makes a better argument for armor pen.[/quote]

[quote=H4xDefender]im sure dandy ran armor pen back in s4 and the start of s5, if hes changed recently then thats interesting, wish i could ask him why X_X rengar mains are different from pro junglers most of the time though. every challenger/lcs jungler i talked to about rengar back when he was more prevalent ran ad/mvspd/atk spd mixes, but upon testing it just seems inferior. imagine an lcs mid laner started picking up talon for some reason. he runs 15 ad and 0 cdr which is different from your page. sure hes really good and probably knows more about the game overall than you do, but his page just isnt as good, and he doesnt know because hes more worried about other facets of the game[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard]Yeah you can't penetrate past 0 armor unless you stack a ton of armor reduction. Even then, you still only reduce below 0 armor and your penetration after that point is wasted. My general impression is that armor pen (marks especially) scale much better for champion damage but they should be weaker for clear. The question is how much of a difference early AD makes. I'm pretty sure armor pen quints aren't run though. I've seen mostly MS, AS and AD. MS is obvious, AS is best for clear and I think AD is used as a compromise between clear and champion damage because AD quints are stronger than arpen quints relative to their respective marks.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark]I understand, but I'm hesitant to trust the judgement of a few individual people. I'm not the only high Elo Talon main and some have differing opinions about runes and build order and such. We can't all be right even if we do all have way more experience on Talon than the average player. If it's a common consensus among [[rengar]] mains that full armor pen is the way to go then I'd find it hard to argue with that, but so far I haven't seen that that's the case. Dekar was the one that changed his summoner to King of Memes, right? This is the rune page he uses in almost all the Rengar games in his recent op.gg history. [img=http://i.imgur.com/fPBXp8K.png width=900] I noticed there was one where he used a full armor pen rune page, and (perhaps due to chance) it was the single worst game in his match history. I couldn't find any jungle [[rengar]] games in Ryan Choi's history (he uses full AD on top lane for what it's worth), and I couldn't find chaosrain (dunno who that is), but Akaadian and Pridestalker are the only ones who actually do seem to use armor pen. Akaadian uses full armor pen marks, and Pridestalker runs basically full armor pen marks and quints. I personally don't trust the opinion of two singular people (or three or four if there are others I don't know about), no matter how good they are at Rengar. Despite all their experience, I know through my own experience with [[talon]] that it's very hard to tell the difference between running armor pen and AD when looking at how much damage you do to enemy champions, and deciding which is best is more a matter of theory crafting and crunching numbers than it is play testing, and even then you can't be completely sure you're right. So I wouldn't recommend taking a few Rengar mains' word for it. Being good at the champion doesn't make them right. It's a safer bet to follow what the majority of the pros/high Elo players are doing, at least you know for sure that what they're doing isn't terrible at the very least, if it's what they're [i]all[/i] running. One trick ponies of all champions in general often like to use different setups and builds from the norm. And if they all can't agree with each other then it makes me less hesitant to accept that the few that are using a different setup happen to be the ones in the right. The impression I'd received from running armor pen in the jungle is that it doesn't really make a big enough difference late-game to justify having such weaker early clears and being slightly weaker against champions in the early-game for. It might be okay to run 3 or 4 marks but no more than that, and definitely not any quints. Edit: Also, the only Dandy Rengar games I could find were actually from the end of season 4, so in solo queue at least, he was running those runes even back then. :P[/quote]

[quote=HectorGray]Idk if you know the proper combo, I'll put it here just in case ^^ Assuming you have Hydra/Tiamat and Youmuu's Ghostblade Get 5 Stacks then use your Ultimate. Select a squishy target and get closer, then use Youmuu's and Empowered Q before jumping, E as you jump and Hydra W Q upon landing. That'll net you a free kill basically each couple of minutes and will improve your game significantly.[/quote]

[quote=Out Of Pancakes][quote=Vapora Dark][quote=Out Of Pancakes]Something to keep in mind is that ArPen is never wasted: you can reduce your foe's armor below 0.[/quote] I haven't checked any of the maths but this part here sounds wrong. You can reduce enemy armor below 0 theoretically, but only with armor reduction, not armor penetration. It's the same with magic resist; with [[abyssal scepter]] you can reduce minion MR to -20 and multiply your damage dealt to minions that way, but magic penetration like [[sorcerer's shoes]] or [[void staff]] don't affect minions as they already have 0 MR, so you have no MR to penetrate. [/quote] My bad, yes. Didn't think armor reduction and penetration were different. My maths for the level 3 gank are still correct. Redo: Reminder, set 1 AD marks, set 2 ArPen marks, level 1 and rank 1 Q: Krugs, 12 armour: - AA: set 1 wins by ~0.5 damage. - Q: set 1 now WINS by 0.25 damage. Gromp, 15 armour (results did not change since his armour is higher): - AA: set 1 wins by 0.5 damage. - Q: set 2 wins by 2.6 damage. Additional maths, for level 2, when you challenge your first buff (both of them have 20 armour): Level 2 Rengar, rank 1 Q: Blue or red buff: - AA: set 1 wins by 0.45=~0.5 damage - Q: set 2 wins by 2.4 damage. On the small minions near the buffs (12 armour for the red ones, 8 armour for the blue ones), the results are similar to those done with the krugs. I'd like to check the maths when you reach like, level 9-13, but I don't really know what items you'd usually have at this point. I've seen some cases where people just keep Brutalizer and some other upgrade it into their Warrior enchant. And you'd maybe have Tiamat or some pieces of it? I'd appreciate some pointers here.[/quote]

[quote=Blian][quote=iambatman]While on the subject on gaming tips. I also got into lee sin and i really really enjoy the champ and im thinking of taking him as my "other main". So if you want you can also throw some general tips on playing lee sin too :D the tips so far have been very helpful.[/quote] His early game is pretty strong and easy. You can go after your small camp to their jungle and just get solo kill/first blood and probably even ganking a lane afterwards. The mechanics shouldn't bother you early-mid game as the easier combos are not that difficult to land and feels very satisfying when you can get a kill like that. Correct me if I am wrong but the difference between the decent [[Lee Sin]] players and a wannabe [[Lee Sin]] players is the mid-late game when you must know your sh*t in a team fight. Your mechanics have to be top notch in order no to get insta CC'd. As others have already said if you really want to pick up the karate kid no worries go for it but I would hardly suggest creating a smurf where you practice [[Lee Sin]] non-stop. Good Luck tho! :)[/quote]

[quote=H4xDefender]chaosrain77 is his name on NA. hes a master tier rengar 1 trick on NA thats ranked first on rengar lolskill iirc. Garoth Ursuul is dekars primary account I believe. not sure who that guy you linked is. Liquid Inori/Dardoch/Kitzuo/Gaedollll are high elo rengar players that also run primarily armor pen. (all of them except gaedolll are also challenger scene junglers, so they arent 1 tricks with a special setup) I think the general consensus for top rengar is to run AD so level 2 cheese is better. If you're going for a tankier rengar (i.e. warrior into tanky) the armor pen isnt as useful which is probably why you dont see it on some of dandys games. You cant find dandys games because chinese games dont show up on probuilds. Cant find the site I used to find his setup, but I do recall him not going armor pen when playing tank/tankier rengar... but tank rengar is pretty bad :P The armor pen definitely makes a difference. I can definitely feel it when playing him and ive been on the receiving end of it as well. It makes killing squishy targets much easier in the mid/lategame. Rengars base values are insane, he doesnt need any more AD.[/quote]

[quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0][quote=H4xDefender] The armor pen definitely makes a difference. I can definitely feel it when playing him and ive been on the receiving end of it as well. It makes killing squishy targets much easier in the mid/lategame. Rengars base values are insane, he doesnt need any more AD.[/quote][/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard]I ran some clear speed + sustain tests on different rune setups. For each test I cleared from krugs to wolves with no leash, only using empowered Q. All rune setups used 9 armor and 5% CDR and I used 21-9-0 masteries for each test. Comparing 19 armor pen to 15 AD, the AD page saved me about 140 hp and 4 seconds on the clear time. I also tested some pages with attack speed quints but the results seemed about the same as AD so they're probably not optimal. I guess Rengar does well enough with his autoattack resets and AS steroid. With a leash, the sustain should be passable with either setup but you'll have quite a bit more hp to work with if you choose to invade or gank before recalling. If you go for a farm-heavy opening I think armor pen is worth it for the scaling. With my playstyle I would definitely use AD quints at the very least. Armor pen marks and AD quints seems a reasonable compromise, though if you plan on level 2 or 3 invading consistently you could consider 15 AD for max early game power. TL;DR: AD gives good clear. Armor pen is still okay. Attack speed not worth.[/quote]