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The best excuse to play Ashe sup (""are you kidding, did you not see dat amazing Ashe sup guide ??") and I can see all the fun potential behind.
+1 to keep motivation alive (and maybe some rune update soon)
I'm considering just making this a general support Ashe guide...
Thanks for the Guide
Keep up the good work
I'm not convinced by the Ardent Censer. I understand the interaction with Stoneborn Pact but it's still a ton of gold to invest in what is a fairly mediocre effect. The passive might proc about as much as Karma could (arguably less since Karma has the added bonus of increased shielding and Redemption healing power) but the stats are unfortunately hot trash on Ashe. 60 AP plus the healing/shielding bonus are simply too costly for a champion that can't use those stats apart from a small keystone proc and a little damage on ult.
I also think you would benefit more from a simple ADC rune page. AS quints are core on all ADCs (cept Jhin) and even if you aren't farming or getting much gold, they're still the best option for lane.
Apart from that, I actually think the rest of the build looks pretty good. I would probably go with Legendary Guardian since it'll give you pretty good stats in a duo lane and you're not building tanky so little bits of resists are good. I can accept if you value Swiftness more though.
I'd also swap your Runaan's Hurricane and Black Cleaver. Runaan's early is nice for slowing multiple targets, but you can also do that with a maxed Volley and some CDR. CDR (and armor shred!) from cleaver is going to let you use your arrow more often which is the only really strong supportive ability Ashe has for combat. If your arrow is on CD and a fight breaks out you're going to be one of the worst supports in the game with only a mild slow for peel and mediocre damage compared to mage supports. Getting CDR early (or in the case of shorter games, as your only complete item) is pretty crucial.
I realize you lose CDR by skipping Censer, but if you rush Cleaver you'll get it even faster. I also recommend switching Tabi to Ionian Boots of Lucidity as your standard choice for the same reason. Tabi is probably still ok situationally. I'd also cut Mobility Boots from the items section since it'll significantly reduce your ability to keep up with people with Frost Shot.
If you take my advice, your final build would look something like this:
Also a small thing, but by late game you can just get Elixir of Wrath. Even if you're not a farming carry you'll have enough damage to warrant the lifesteal by the time you start thinking about buying elixirs. Iron doesn't do much for you anyway.
I actually like that you went for a weird guide like this since quite frankly a lot of the wacky guides aren't made by good authors, so it's cool that people looking for something interesting and fun to try have someone experienced to guide them. :)
But thank you for your vote of confidence about me being an experience author, that made my day :)
Some of the things you mentioned, like ADC rune page is acceptable to include of course, and I'll get to that. Just need to think about whether I want this to be a general support Ashe guide (which wasn't what I intended). If I do make it a general support Ashe guide, I could upload different builds I've tried and enjoyed, but again, I'll have to think about it ^^
Cheers Joev! :3
I like Black Cleaver first as well because IF you stay with Ardent Censer, it goes by 2.5 of YOUR max health- meaning thats 7.5 more per auto! I actually like the idea of BC first whichever build path you decide on!
Edit: BC first, meaning BEFORE hurricane, not as a first item lol
First off, I want to start out by saying congratulations on your beautiful guide. It looks amazing and I didn’t expect anything less :). Unfortunately, you might get some backlash from people who think this is ‘****’ or ‘suboptimal’ because it can seem troll-y and there is some bad cons of taking Ashe support over an amazing support like Lulu. However, I don’t think some people realize this: Ashe’s arrow is REALLY powerful. Your guide gives 40%CDR, which means that it gives your team more of a reason to get picks from the arrow hit and then 4v5 and win. Think about WHY she is even in the LCS. Ashe is this squishy immobile ADC who can get shredded easily by anyone with gapclosers. She does have some decent kiting with her Q slow and such, but she requires some good peeling as well.. BUT, her ultimate is what makes her this viable pick. Pro players know how to take advantage of that 1-3.5 second stun (or aim for the person who now has no Flash becuase they used it to get away from your arrow), as well as higher elo players. I’m sure people might now say, “okay, then just play Ashe ADC and call it a day”. This Stoneborn Pact mixed with Ardent Censer is a really good idea because with your CC and Runaan's Hurricane, you can apply these stacks. The reason I pick League of Legends over any other MOBA or even game (I love games but League is my fav) is BECAUSE people figure out ways to make metas. I took Luden’s on some burst mages, when now Liandry’s actually gives MORE burst (with sacrificing some movement speed). Liandry’s used to be a NEVER bought item besides someone like Teemo, but now look at it’s popularity! We learned about how Miss Fortune can counter that Zyra or Malzahar with her Q. I could go on and on, but these things are what makes the game so fun and adaptable. This Ashe support is doing just that. Okay, maybe it hasn’t made it into the LCS or isn’t widely known, but who knows what will happen! Stoneborn Pact just became a keystone and people need time to play around with it to see it’s true potential. I congratulate you on your guide, and I hope you find the best way to make this Ashe Support stuff happen.
As for your guide itself, I have more of questions or suggestions rather than “hey, fix this”. For one, would you also consider Sivir a reasonable counter to Ashe Support? I can see her massive ultimate movement speed and her spell shield making it a bit tougher for Ashe to engage with her arrow or slow her for a long period of time- as well as her spell shield blocking your poke volley more often and giving her mana.
Second, I obviously haven’t played around with Ashe Support so I don’t know, but do you think that Ancient Coin could be an alternative if you are against an APC in bot lane ( Brand, Zyra, etc)? I would assume you can still Volley and get your gold from Spellthief's Edge when they try to poke and it DOES seem that Spellthief's Edge would be the best support item, but they are also good zoners and you may need that extra health from the minions due to their poke. I saw you tried getting coin and I didn't know if that was just a no no, or if you had a specific reasoning for trying it out. Just a thought, although I have no experience with all of this so bear with me. Keep this in mind for all of my suggestions, as you know more than I do.
Third, you mentioned some mana problems and when I play Ashe sometimes, I even have those mana problems, aka one reason why Essence Reaver is good on her. I couldn’t imagine trying to use your Volley to spam more and running out of mana. With this being said, would sacrificing Merciless for Meditation be a good alternative? For my mages now, I don’t think of 3% as a lot in the long run compared to the amount of mana I will be able to get back for more poking in lane/using spells. However, I also know you have the possibility of hitting many champions with Runaan's, so that 3% can definitely add up- but the other downside would be they have to also be less than 40% health for the 3% to even apply anyways. What do you think? Do you have quite a bit of mana issues all game or is it just something that affects your early game a bit?
Fourth, I feel like Ashe Support with this Ardent idea would really fit if you guys have something like a Kayle top with that Sivir ADC or something like that- it can even be three champs with attack speed. This way, Ardent applies to more than just your ADC. I feel like mentioning what team comps she excels in (AD/attack speed comps) and which one's are eh on her (AP comps) would also be valuable. However, if this DOES gets popular, Frozen Heart would look like a very good counter item as well- I would keep that in mind as well!
Lastly, this is very small, but I would also recommend adding putting a ward at the bush kinda ‘to the side’ the first mid tower- in between the first mid tower and wolves on the purple side. I ward this quite frequently because most teams push mid, and if you are sieging for that second mid tower (if you are on the blue side), a lot of assassins or engagers like to hide there. I know as Lux, I hide in that bush and snipe the ADC away before he can even blink! Champions like Fiddlesticks and such can also really benefit from that bush as well.
Like I said, I personally want to experiment with this idea as well and I think the guide is beautiful. Finding things to maybe put in the meta or even be decent and fun shouldn’t be all you and it takes time and patience. I love the idea that people are helping you figure out things like what runes and other things to buy and do in order to make support Ashe the best it can be. With aaaall this being said, +1 and I’ll be sure to try it out and let you know how it goes!
-Luxeøn
I just wanted to say that I appreciate your comment and I'll come back to responding properly at another time. But just quickly, I never said I had issues with mana on support Ashe, which is why I don't run Meditation . And that's with spamming Volley when it's off cooldown.
As for champions that counter support Ashe, there are quite a few and for obvious spell shield reasons: Morgana, Sivir, Nocturne, Yasuo to name a few. Yas in particular is extremely annoying, blocking ECA and Volley with a single wall.
I'll address your other comments soon(TM).
Thank you again :) <3
I'm having a look at my current build path and thinking about your respective comments about Eye of the Watchers upgrade vs early Ardent Censer. But when I try and juggle what to build, I'm left with the facts that upgrading to Eye is 550G but buying Ardent is 2300, when you've already invested with Sightstone and Frostfang.
Someone mentioned not upgrading Spellthief's, but Frostfang is absolutely necessary for the extra gold gen, otherwise you're unlikely to even finish Ardent before midgame begins. And obviously Sightstone is absolutely necessary on a support bot lane.
Thoughts?
As per runes, I find myself able to proc Stoneborn easily without attack speed due to Volley. In that event, AD perhaps would suit better? MS quints allow Ashe to position herself better in lane to, to land Volley's and AAs. Without MS quints, she feels extremely unwieldy and already lacking in mobility she feels very vulnerable.
Regarding runes, what Janitsu said stands. I'd personally either use AD marks + atspd quints or 15 ad, but I've seen the guy who came up with it use CDR glyphs, too. While theoretically, movespeed quints aren't bad, they're not going to make a crucial difference - you're Ashe, people are still going to be able to get in your face and kill you. Because of that, it's better to opt for something that will help your laning phase (more defensive stats = better trading; more AD is good for poke).
As for quints, I'd recommend taking armor in them and getting some health out of seals. I suggested 2xArmor and 1xAD in my comment, which seems to be the one that many do run, and I find that to be the best for me (enough survivability for the lane and for enemy's ADC but still some AD for a tiny bit more damage).
I'll try out those tankier runes and post back with results.
Done?
Alright, good job, then now it should be clear. Although, you may have removed it by now because you personally found it offensive and have the power to do so, and in that case you still read it, so you should still know my reasoning.
That being said, here's some more advice—definitely not adding this in because I am following your trend to increase the length of my comments, oh dear no: Always wear protective goggles when dismembering your kidnapped hookers with a bonesaw, the splinters can pose a serious threat to your eyes.
G M D. Just as much of a creep in real life.
The sheer amount of garbage site politics—and yes we can call them that, because we've also called an orange winning the elections politics—"I see no reason why not upvote right now :)" Not only is that not a grammatically correct sentence, but it's also stupid. I mean, it's ****ing support Ashe, which may not be the worst idea ever, but it's certainly up there.
Before I'm getting into that, let's get into your stupid as **** reasoning. You don't see a reason to not upvote?! Maybe put on your ****ing glasses, sonny, because I believe that in your previous comment, that was actually readable—call the ****ing newspapers for this one—you've listed a whole bunch of things that you think are wrong with it, yet you simply upvote it because of what? Because you expect an unenthusiastic handjob from buoybuoy (On a sidenote, I seriously think you should consider that rename; I think it's clever)?
That being said, the guide is called "Ardent Ashe - A Passionate Support". What the **** does that even mean? First of all, it's a ******** tautology; perfectly in line with the whole Trump **** floating about, but seriously, that title. Then it's about being passionate. What the **** does it matter whether or not a bunch of ones and zeroes is passionate. On that topic, can we even call Ashe passionate? Whatever, let's not get into existentialist ******** right now. The title is meaningless and arguably one of the worst I have ever seen.
Alright, let's get into the whole concept, because boy oh boy. This just reeks of the whole "I am a special snowflake and the new-age Faker the glorious" because there's a ****ing reason nobody plays this. Did the world really need to know on how to play the most optimal Ashe support? No. Is this guide the most optimal way to do so? Shockingly, probably not.
The guide's recommended runes and masteries are questionable at best, and so are the item choices. Are you seriously recommending to rush Censer just to up Stoneborn? Like, really? I really don't wish to go through it all since frankly it's a huge wall of text, features more basic explanations than the average player needs—unless you think that the noobiest of the noobs will flock to this guide, which may very well be true, but then you should tell them that this blows and do something else until they're sick of this game and ready to **** around, but I'm getting off-topic really—and it contains more images than the average Dr. Seuss novel. The layout feels extremely cluttered and is a mix of large, useless, graphics and massive blocks of text.
I am also missing a disclaimer and an actual explanation of which niche support Ashe actually fills. What's the reason of playing this over any other support, be it conventional or unconventional? Is there even a reason besides ***** and giggles?
Take my comment for what it is, because I am fairly certain almost no one around here will agree with me, because they blindly adore you or think that support Ashe indeed has a place around here. You've probably spent a lot of time on this, but I think every second of that was time wasted and may very well have been used on like, I don't know, having sex or something.
I know that, at this point in time, I am utterly garbage at this game and am willing to admit it, and perhaps Support Ashe is the new be-all end-all of this universe, but I really doubt that. Perhaps I am too stupid to see the genius behind all of this, and the massive Stoneborn abuse that this may very well represent. Perhaps it'll lead to Riot nerfing or even removing the mastery because this is just too damn good.
However, I doubt it. Enjoy your free points, I will enjoy mine.
G M D. Will stroke your hair lovingly and tell you that he hates you, but not all the time.
The guide isn't perfect but it sure as hell beats the other support Ashe guides we've had in the past. For once this is a guide on an actually legitimate strategy that many pro players have been experimenting with, and could eventually become a meta support pick just like Miss Fortune did overnight. Time will only tell whether it's ******ed or genius (or genius while still unfortunately sucking), but for now it has my blessing just for getting the core concept right and being the only guide on the site for this strategy; and I know most imperfections will soon enough be corrected from feedback anyway.
Also, you're looking at it the wrong way. It's not using Ardent Censer to make Stoneborn Pact good, it's abusing a wonderful interaction between a **** mastery and a potentially broken (and 100% uptime is well past the line of "potentially") item. Stoneborn Pact by itself is **** and not even worth taking, but Ardent Censer is amazing and definitely worth picking a **** mastery for if that mastery will give you a 100% uptime on it, not just for your ADC, but for your entire team.
I think Ardent Censer is broken enough on picks like Lulu and Karma for their low CD shields, which for the most part will only affect 1 champion. This strategy offers 100% uptime on up to 4 champions, which just might be enough to make this actually good.
Edit: Also you've been gone for a looooong time if you think I have a history of blindly adoring jhoijhoi, especially concerning her Ashe guides. :^)
Well, sure, but that doesn't make it good. I mean, when it comes to gimmicky stuff like this I expect it to be 100% optimal, because that's what you need to make this remotely work. The movement speed quints and the cluttered nature of the guide itself make me lose any faith in the concept upfront. Also, I have played this **** in the past, and it's not something to write home about. Admittedly, that was before the introduction of both the **** mastery and Censer.
No, that's true; it's about Censer, and I realise that. Although, I get the feeling that you're sinking too much into this combo that will overall leave you with a ****py laning phase and a support with no mobility and limited crowd control. The combo may be good, but Censer can be abused on other champions in a much better way, which makes me question the entire concept as a whole: Ashe fills no particular niche as a support, everything she does—thanks to Censer's existence—is rendered moot by the fact every champion can do this, and most champions, especially the actual support champions are probably better at it.
It's true, and while the AoE **** may be good enough to push this concept into the realm of usefulness, you can apply this to so many champions, and well, as stated, I think sacrificing the oh-so important early-game for this is just a bit too much, especially when there's other supports out there who really abuse this as well (i.e. Lulu, Janna, Karma).
I know you don't adore jhoijhoi, and for that I am willing to give you a nice *******.
G M D. Shameless ***** with an attitude.
Not every champion can do this. You have to have a movement impairment ability. Only Ashe has automatic slows on her auto-attacks, an AoE slow that can hit multiple targets, and an ult that can hit multiple targets to stun one and slow surrounding enemies. Her entire kit is movement impairment abilities, which synergises with Stoneborn Pact and Ardent Censer. Other champions may have a few abilities that they can access after cooldowns. All Ashe has to do is auto to apply Stoneborn, and due to her relatively long range, it is easy to do so. That's the difference between support Ashe and any other champion who has a movement impairment ability.
It's true, and while the AoE **** may be good enough to push this concept into the realm of usefulness, you can apply this to so many champions
Those are my concerns as well. I very much doubt I'd rather have Ashe than Karma, and there are even other supports that I would rather have than Karma. But this doesn't have to be top tier in order to be okay, and for now I'm willing to give this guide and the entire concept of support Ashe the benefit of the doubt, since I know very well how strong Ardent Censer is. But I could very well change my mind after laning with 1 too many useless support Ashes. :^)