Mages can only go support now....

[quote=Dyto][quote=Fruxo][quote=Dyto]No sir, its you refusing to see the point. The point is that even if they can carry from these non-mage positions the effort needed is much greater than if you just pick correctly[/quote] The problem here is your "point" is based on your own personal opinion so it really doesn't matter. :)[/quote] Im willing to bet, that most of the people here understand what Im saying to some degree, and even agree with it mostly. The difference is they dont WANT to believe it, so instead of thinking objectively about what they see and know to be true about the game they lash out or defend blindly what they WANT to believe or what they've been told to believe. Listen I used to be a mage main, mages are ALOT of fun when they're not behind and feeding, but the only role you can reliably take them in a way that doesnt directly undermine your teams overall potential is support, and again yes ... mages CAN carry anywhere, but what you're saying is you feel its ok to put yourself behind by 50 meters in a 150 meter race, no thaank you.[/quote]

[quote=Fruxo][quote=Dyto]Im willing to bet, that most of the people here understand what Im saying to some degree, and even agree with it mostly. The difference is they dont WANT to believe it, so instead of thinking objectively about what they see and know to be true about the game they lash out or defend blindly what they WANT to believe or what they've been told to believe. Listen I used to be a mage main, mages are ALOT of fun when they're not behind and feeding, but the only role you can reliably take them in a way that doesnt directly undermine your teams overall potential is support, and again yes ... mages CAN carry anywhere, but what you're saying is you feel its ok to put yourself behind by 50 meters in a 150 meter race, no thaank you.[/quote] Yes, you're right. We can agree to some extent. Doesn't remove the fact that your entire argument is still all based on personal opinion, as per usual.[/quote]

[quote=Dyto][quote=Fruxo][quote=Dyto]Im willing to bet, that most of the people here understand what Im saying to some degree, and even agree with it mostly. The difference is they dont WANT to believe it, so instead of thinking objectively about what they see and know to be true about the game they lash out or defend blindly what they WANT to believe or what they've been told to believe. Listen I used to be a mage main, mages are ALOT of fun when they're not behind and feeding, but the only role you can reliably take them in a way that doesnt directly undermine your teams overall potential is support, and again yes ... mages CAN carry anywhere, but what you're saying is you feel its ok to put yourself behind by 50 meters in a 150 meter race, no thaank you.[/quote] Yes, you're right. We can agree to some extent. Doesn't remove the fact that your entire argument is still all based on personal opinion, as per usual.[/quote] Honestly, Riot has essentially nullified any ability TO question their champion balance, because they put up winrates ( which again.... are only a reflection of their matchmaking algorithm ) and swear that because eeverything is near 50% it is nearly perfectly balanced. Winrate statistics mean nothing until you break it down further, I'm trying to create a tracker for statistics that could pull apart this information in a way that proves my point but I only just recently started thinking about how to do that with the "statistics" they do give us. Im thinking, pull out the average time each role is *MVP* and *10th place* as far as in game statistics ( Na.op.gg does MVP - 10th place based on stats KDA, turrets killed, wards placed etc ) So lets assume each role falls into the 20% category for both MVP and 10th place ( simplifying things here )so each role has a theoretical chance at MVP of 20% right? then any champions that fall outside of these parameters by more than 2 - 4% would be obvious candidate for either buffs / nerfs .... and Im pretty much garunteeing ....once I do this ... it will show exactly what Im talking about with champion balance, and yes I get it ...the MVP stats are not perfect statistics for champion balance, but that is atleast far better than the current standard of "Winrate" and "Pickrate". I feel like ....the swing is probably like this JG carry - 30% Top Carry - 20% Mid carry 30% Supp carry 15% ADC carry 5% Im actually serious about these numbers .... they're probably pretty close too[/quote]

[quote=Tauricus2017]So you are assuming that Riot's matchmaking system is making champion winrates useless for they are selecting players to be as close to 50% as possible? Do you have any proof about that which would refer to anything else then "just your opinion" and would be more trustworthy then well-maching data from sources like u.gg, lolalytics, proguides.com, op.gg, champion.gg or leagueofgraphs? And how could enchanters be handled by your custom system? I am a big Soraka player and my main job always is to make my carries become MVP and not myself, your system would make it seem like Soraka would be absolute trash of a champion even though she could possibly rock. And If you would be correct about matchmaking system, How can you explain that no one really talks about that? If there would be such a huge controversy in the game, playerbase would just explode on social sites. I am sorry but all your points just seem so extremely unlikely that I can not belive it. Not because I don't want to belive it but because data from winrates really is impacting my games. When I play against cca 54% winrate champion I can clearly feel the difference in compare to 48% champion. Every time they say a champion is above 53% winrate, I literally [b]feel[/b] how hard it is to play against it. Why should people trust your system more then the system we have now? Also your numbers seem to be really subjective. You can't just set numbers of your own into the chart. League of legends is a game of relative numbers and so you can't just play with static ones. Where are "X"s and "Y"s? And If you are saying that winrates mean nothing and that we have to get deeper into it, how can you explain that from all those graphs on lolalytics.com it is safe to assume that generally champions with higher winrates tend to have more objectives, kills, assissts, DPS, etc. then champions with low winrates? And how can you even add "wards placed" into your data - remember that wards can be placed by any champion any amount of times and it is up to player him/herself on how many he/she will place?[/quote]

[quote=Dyto][quote=Tauricus2017]So you are assuming that Riot's matchmaking system is making champion winrates useless for they are selecting players to be as close to 50% as possible? Do you have any proof about that which would refer to anything else then "just your opinion" and would be more trustworthy then well-maching data from sources like u.gg, lolalytics, proguides.com, op.gg, champion.gg or leagueofgraphs? And how could enchanters be handled by your custom system? I am a big Soraka player and my main job always is to make my carries become MVP and not myself, your system would make it seem like Soraka would be absolute trash of a champion even though she could possibly rock. And If you would be correct about matchmaking system, How can you explain that no one really talks about that? If there would be such a huge controversy in the game, playerbase would just explode on social sites. I am sorry but all your points just seem so extremely unlikely that I can not belive it. Not because I don't want to belive it but because data from winrates really is impacting my games. When I play against cca 54% winrate champion I can clearly feel the difference in compare to 48% champion. Every time they say a champion is above 53% winrate, I literally [b]feel[/b] how hard it is to play against it. Why should people trust your system more then the system we have now? Also your numbers seem to be really subjective. You can't just set numbers of your own into the chart. League of legends is a game of relative numbers and so you can't just play with static ones. Where are "X"s and "Y"s? And If you are saying that winrates mean nothing and that we have to get deeper into it, how can you explain that from all those graphs on lolalytics.com it is safe to assume that generally champions with higher winrates tend to have more objectives, kills, assissts, DPS, etc. then champions with low winrates? And how can you even add "wards placed" into your data - remember that wards can be placed by any champion any amount of times and it is up to player him/herself on how many he/she will place?[/quote] The matchmaking algo in question was only brought up by riot because people described what felt like "Elo hell" which matches up with what they defended as their matchmaking algorithm which ultimately only has one goal, keeping you as close to 50% as possible.[/quote]

[quote=Tauricus2017]Alright but what exactly is wrong with that? It goes both ways. If you are too good, you will be paired up with worse players and vica versa - this way, matchamking system can keep both teams at roughly 50% collective winrate and games will be as fair as possible. And how is that even making champion winrates useless? [[bard]] players will be as often the best players in their team, just like they would be the worst players in their team. Same goes to any other champions in the game. Winrates are not affected by it and you can see them actually showing off pretty clearly how the champion is doing. Let's take [[amumu]] for example. Before preseason items he was holding a [url=https://u.gg/lol/champions/amumu/build?patch=10_21]49.7%[/url] winrate - just a regular champion, nothing special, right? Well when preseason items arrived, his winrate spiked up to [url=https://u.gg/lol/champions/amumu/build?patch=10_23]58%[/url] - this is not any useless number. At that time there were actually recordings of [[amumu]] [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sses896vDxc]1v1 winning against baron in 20 minutes[/url] of the game. Then Riot nerfed hims shortly after because his winrates were too high and he was too strong which most of the community seemed to agree on. A patch after he was holding once again a roughly [url=https://u.gg/lol/champions/amumu/build?patch=10_24]50% winrate[/url]. Now you no longer see countless reddit posts on the internet about him being compltely busted, no recordings of busted baron 1v1ing and much less recordings of [[amumu]] one shots with tank build. If what you are saying would be correct, numbers would in no way be so tighted up with each other. When a champion has high winrate, it also has higher playrate, it also has highr ban rate and it also has more complaining reddit posts and videos. Winrates are in fact just as useful as any other stat in the entire game and so your point about winrates not showing relevant information about the champion's power, is just as misleading as it is subjetive, because you are putting your very own opinion above relevant and objective statistics that we all have. I dunno to me it just seems like you won't change your mind even though I just showed you countless proofs and links, even though you have shown [b]none[/b]. I have seen you made 16 posts at total on this website, (all being super subjective and full of mindless complaints imo, without any references to real data), and yet I have never seen you change your mind. Not a single time, even though you were almost always in minority. I feel like you need to belive in all of this just so you can complain and hide mistakes that you, yourself are doing in your games. Take a look at this post. Silverman literally showed you so many ways you can nullify mage weaknesses and real reasons why mages are just as good as assassins, yet you took his one paragraph out of context and talked about only that. I in last comment heavily questioned your system with many issues I see that and you haven't answered a single one. Sorry but to me you just seem like a standard lol player who blames everything but yourself, isn't able to ever change his mind and point of view and complains about literally everything, even though people with real arguments regarding data are trying to tell you the otherwise. I don't see any further future in this discussion for your mind is locked from anything it does not want to hear. So I am no longer going to involve in this. Sorry If I got a bit toxic, but that's how I see it...[/quote]

[quote=Dyto][quote=Tauricus2017]So you are assuming that Riot's matchmaking system is making champion winrates useless for they are selecting players to be as close to 50% as possible? Do you have any proof about that which would refer to anything else then "just your opinion" and would be more trustworthy then well-maching data from sources like u.gg, lolalytics, proguides.com, op.gg, champion.gg or leagueofgraphs? And how could enchanters be handled by your custom system? I am a big Soraka player and my main job always is to make my carries become MVP and not myself, your system would make it seem like Soraka would be absolute trash of a champion even though she could possibly rock. And If you would be correct about matchmaking system, How can you explain that no one really talks about that? If there would be such a huge controversy in the game, playerbase would just explode on social sites. I am sorry but all your points just seem so extremely unlikely that I can not belive it. Not because I don't want to belive it but because data from winrates really is impacting my games. When I play against cca 54% winrate champion I can clearly feel the difference in compare to 48% champion. Every time they say a champion is above 53% winrate, I literally [b]feel[/b] how hard it is to play against it. Why should people trust your system more then the system we have now? Also your numbers seem to be really subjective. You can't just set numbers of your own into the chart. League of legends is a game of relative numbers and so you can't just play with static ones. Where are "X"s and "Y"s? And If you are saying that winrates mean nothing and that we have to get deeper into it, how can you explain that from all those graphs on lolalytics.com it is safe to assume that generally champions with higher winrates tend to have more objectives, kills, assissts, DPS, etc. then champions with low winrates? And how can you even add "wards placed" into your data - remember that wards can be placed by any champion any amount of times and it is up to player him/herself on how many he/she will place?[/quote] In those situations it would still work by expanding the statistic criteria ; All you have to do, is expand the statistics to include 2nd - 9th place positions as well ( not for intial balancing, but just to be able to investigate if there may need to be more attention .... Basically only MVP and 10th place are taken into consideration initially ( Maybe include 6th and 5th too but that may bring it too close to 50% much like riot's garbo system ) .... as I said supports are given the base line average + / - some percentage from that baseline. So supports are MVP 15% of the time, any that fall dramatically outside of that range would maybe need adjustments, and I support a lot.... you cant tell me you dont get 2nd place, or even 3rd place fairly often as a support that has managed to beef his ADC up to a carry, I main support and Im VERY regularly MVP on many supports ( sona, lulu, mao, rell, leona, thresh mains ) so I dont think its that far a stretch to assume you can do the same[/quote]

[quote=Dyto][quote=Tauricus2017]Alright but what exactly is wrong with that? It goes both ways. If you are too good, you will be paired up with worse players and vica versa - this way, matchamking system can keep both teams at roughly 50% collective winrate and games will be as fair as possible. And how is that even making champion winrates useless? [[bard]] players will be as often the best players in their team, just like they would be the worst players in their team. Same goes to any other champions in the game. Winrates are not affected by it and you can see them actually showing off pretty clearly how the champion is doing. Let's take [[amumu]] for example. Before preseason items he was holding a [url=https://u.gg/lol/champions/amumu/build?patch=10_21]49.7%[/url] winrate - just a regular champion, nothing special, right? Well when preseason items arrived, his winrate spiked up to [url=https://u.gg/lol/champions/amumu/build?patch=10_23]58%[/url] - this is not any useless number. At that time there were actually recordings of [[amumu]] [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sses896vDxc]1v1 winning against baron in 20 minutes[/url] of the game. Then Riot nerfed hims shortly after because his winrates were too high and he was too strong which most of the community seemed to agree on. A patch after he was holding once again a roughly [url=https://u.gg/lol/champions/amumu/build?patch=10_24]50% winrate[/url]. Now you no longer see countless reddit posts on the internet about him being compltely busted, no recordings of busted baron 1v1ing and much less recordings of [[amumu]] one shots with tank build. If what you are saying would be correct, numbers would in no way be so tighted up with each other. When a champion has high winrate, it also has higher playrate, it also has highr ban rate and it also has more complaining reddit posts and videos. Winrates are in fact just as useful as any other stat in the entire game and so your point about winrates not showing relevant information about the champion's power, is just as misleading as it is subjetive, because you are putting your very own opinion above relevant and objective statistics that we all have. I dunno to me it just seems like you won't change your mind even though I just showed you countless proofs and links, even though you have shown [b]none[/b]. I have seen you made 16 posts at total on this website, (all being super subjective and full of mindless complaints imo, without any references to real data), and yet I have never seen you change your mind. Not a single time, even though you were almost always in minority. I feel like you need to belive in all of this just so you can complain and hide mistakes that you, yourself are doing in your games. Take a look at this post. Silverman literally showed you so many ways you can nullify mage weaknesses and real reasons why mages are just as good as assassins, yet you took his one paragraph out of context and talked about only that. I in last comment heavily questioned your system with many issues I see that and you haven't answered a single one. Sorry but to me you just seem like a standard lol player who blames everything but yourself, isn't able to ever change his mind and point of view and complains about literally everything, even though people with real arguments regarding data are trying to tell you the otherwise. I don't see any further future in this discussion for your mind is locked from anything it does not want to hear. So I am no longer going to involve in this. Sorry If I got a bit toxic, but that's how I see it...[/quote] Well again.... the problem becomes that some champions whose power is WAY too far out of line with most champions have their inequities hidden from the matchmaking system, I get what they THOUGHT would happen if they used this type of matchmaking, but the reality is its not only created a consistent feel of elo hell at EVERY range of the game, it also completely hides any information we could use as an argument against their shitty champion balance Edit@ Its VERY easy to completely invalidate statistics by adding some tertiary information, or controlling variables etc, and even if riot's original intent wasnt to hide poor champion balance, that is in effect what it did, they essentially took the "Lazy route" when it comes to balance .... just pretend its perfect, you have the statistics to "prove" it.[/quote]