Mages can only go support now....

[quote=Dyto][quote=Fruxo][quote=Dyto]Again you're ignoring what im saying .... I said that even when they CAN perform these other roles ( other than support ) they're just so heavily outmatched at every point of the game by lane opponents you compete with, so why even take them there? Its not to win more obviously, and while I get it ....mages are fun to play ... they're sadly not fun to play WITH anymore, when the enemy has an assassin mid, bruiser top, top tier adc and you're stuck with a mage trying to keep up with them.... you remind me again how that felt, because 9 times out of 10, the mage will be the drag on the team if they're not just going support.[/quote] So you mean to tell me that based on your own opinion, every mage is outmatched? what lol[/quote] I'll bite Gimme a mage in any unorthodox role ( anything but support ) who performs at or above their competitors in your mind.[/quote]

[quote=Fruxo][quote=Dyto] I'll bite Gimme a mage in any unorthodox role ( anything but support ) who performs at or above their competitors in your mind.[/quote] [[annie]]. Even then, you're still ignoring the main point. Any mage can perform at or above their competitors because it's completely depending on the player, like with any other class/role. Whilst a platinum tier player or below may perform bad with said mage, a higher elo player can make it absolutely broken.[/quote]

[quote=Dyto][quote=Fruxo][quote=Dyto] I'll bite Gimme a mage in any unorthodox role ( anything but support ) who performs at or above their competitors in your mind.[/quote] [[annie]]. Even then, you're still ignoring the main point. Any mage can perform at or above their competitors because it's completely depending on the player, like with any other class/role. Whilst a platinum tier player or below may perform bad with said mage, a higher elo player can make it absolutely broken.[/quote] No sir, its you refusing to see the point. The point is that even if they can carry from these non-mage positions the effort needed is much greater than if you just pick correctly[/quote]

[quote=Tauricus2017][quote=Dyto] No sir, its you refusing to see the point. The point is that even if they can carry from these non-mage positions the effort needed is much greater than if you just pick correctly[/quote] I have to kind of stand with Fruxo here. According to stat websites mages can literally do well on any lane that fits their playstyle and allows them to do what they excel at. And you can't really compare mages with assassins. Both of those classes play absolutely different and are good/bad in their very own spects of the game and have their own main playerbase. This is just extrmely subjective topic. Last year I felt like Assassins are the worst class in the game for how easy it was for me to just kick them in their weak points while playing around mine. But other people might felt absolutely different. That's because every champion is different, every class is different, every player is different. Some people might do really well with mages for how extremely well they can fit their playstyle while other people can really connect with tanks and other people can connect with bruisers, etc., etc. Also your point about "effort needed" is also completely subjective as the amount of effort needed depends mainly on the player. Some players consider it hard to play safe and keeping your distance and they keep on getting close and dying to assassins, while other players might consider it hard to play with range disadvantage (me included) and so they keep dying to poke from mages. I get that you feel outmatched at every point of the game with mages, but not every person feels that way, and that's really important to understand.[/quote]

[quote=Dyto][quote=Tauricus2017][quote=Dyto] No sir, its you refusing to see the point. The point is that even if they can carry from these non-mage positions the effort needed is much greater than if you just pick correctly[/quote] I have to kind of stand with Fruxo here. According to stat websites mages can literally do well on any lane that fits their playstyle and allows them to do what they excel at. And you can't really compare mages with assassins. Both of those classes play absolutely different and are good/bad in their very own spects of the game and have their own main playerbase. This is just extrmely subjective topic. Last year I felt like Assassins are the worst class in the game for how easy it was for me to just kick them in their weak points while playing around mine. But other people might felt absolutely different. That's because every champion is different, every class is different, every player is different. Some people might do really well with mages for how extremely well they can fit their playstyle while other people can really connect with tanks and other people can connect with bruisers, etc., etc. Also your point about "effort needed" is also completely subjective as the amount of effort needed depends mainly on the player. Some players consider it hard to play safe and keeping your distance and they keep on getting close and dying to assassins, while other players might consider it hard to play with range disadvantage (me included) and so they keep dying to poke from mages. I get that you feel outmatched at every point of the game with mages, but not every person feels that way, and that's really important to understand.[/quote] Everything you said suggests you play in low elo, first of all no duh assassins and mages perform different tasks , and again.... I have admitted mages CAN carry even from these roles which they are not optimal picks in. Thats not the point im making, Im saying that on a power output ratio compared to other champions in those roles ( which are not mages ) they fall short generally speaking, and assuming even skill, the assassin and melee AD champion just has no drawbacks the same as the mage does, so you're just giving yourself a negative handicap.... for no reason.[/quote]

[quote=Tauricus2017][quote=Dyto] Everything you said suggests you play in low elo, first of all no duh assassins and mages perform different tasks , and again.... I have admitted mages CAN carry even from these roles which they are not optimal picks in. Thats not the point im making, Im saying that on a power output ratio compared to other champions in those roles ( which are not mages ) they fall short generally speaking, and assuming even skill, the assassin and melee AD champion just has no drawbacks the same as the mage does, so you're just giving yourself a negative handicap.... for no reason.[/quote] I indeed am playing at very low ELO (unrankeds to be specific). Alright let's say that I agree with you that mages do indeed have much more weaknesses then any other class in the game. Ye, that perhaps does make some sense. After all assassins are generally more popular then mages (but numbers vary). So let's say that mages have generally 5 weaknesses and assasins have 3. There still is tons of reasons why you want to pick a mage. Perhaps assassin weaknesses affect you more then other players because you don't click with their playstyle, while mages really suit the way you like playing. Perhaps it is because your enemy has hard time against mages and you can very effectively counterpick him. Maybe it is just because playing mages makes you have fun and enjoy the game more. To give an example, I play AP Support [[miss fortune]]. That pick has like millions of different weaknesses while regular support has much less of them. That pick is straight up destroying my overall winrate in LoL. So why I am still playing her? What makes me queue up and play this champion over and over again even though I am well aware of how bad pick it generally is? It is because it makes me have fun and enjoy the game. That pick really connects with my playstyle and sometimes I can even become even MVP with it, even through the odds. I have some really great matchups where I can just do whatever I want without my enemies being able to stop me. And who cares that this concept makes MF immobile, weak early, super quishy, reliant on my E & R, no DPS, etc. If it makes me have fun and sometimes even win hard with it? What I am trying to say is that in grand scheme of things, none of our opinions matter. Some people will always be doing extremely well with mages, hitting challanger and crushing lanes, winning early game, mid game, late game, everything. There will always be people that do the same with assassins and with any other role/champion. It doesn't matter If we like it or not, If we agree with it or not, but there is always some light in every champion of League of legends. And yes, light in some champions might be brighter then the light inside other champions. But who said that the way to skies should be easy? For anyone can pick the weakest champion in the game and prove the world that it was them, who got to rank 1 challanger with the weakest champion in the game, because they love that champion and won't stop playing it just because the odds were against...[/quote]

[quote=Silverman43]I'm gonna be honest. Please base your points on real arguments because everything you are stating is solely based on your personal opinion. 1. Most mages do have a weaker early game yes. But this also varies with each champion. [[syndra]], [[neeko]], [[zoe]]... are all mages with a decent early game and are capable of getting solo kills, even against assassins. And not all assassins are strong early. [[kassadin]], [[diana]], [[yone]]... all need to scale in order to do something, unless you mess up really hard against them. Saying mages will always come from behind into midgame is just straight up false and not based on any arguments. Even if they don't have much early power, they often have defensive abilities ([[rebirth]], [[void shift]], [[molten shield]], [[command: protect]]...), defensive items ([[seeker's armguard]], [[verdant barrier]]), defensive runes ([[nullifying orb]], [[biscuit delivery]], [[perfect timing]]...) and defensive summoner spells ([[barrier]], [[heal]], [[cleanse]]). It's not hard to be at least even with your opponent while coming into midgame. It's not a problem for mages to kill bruisers or tanks lategame. There is more than enough itemization available to counter them. Grievous wounds are the most accessible and cheapest they have ever been with [[oblivion orb]] costing only 800 gold, there is magic penetration on several items, [[riftmaker]] gives free true damage, [[liandry's anguish]] provides max HP burn AND magic resist shredding, [[demonic embrace]] also grants max HP burn... 2. There are enough reasons to pick mages over other classes. Let's compare with assassins. An assassin usually goes in, bursts one target and tries to get out. (Of course there are exceptions that can deal AoE damage, but that aside.) While doing so, they are extremely vulnerable to getting CCed or bursted down before being able to do anything. Assassins are also extremely feast or famine, they can take over games if fed, but if they are behind they don't have any utility and they often won't be able to solo kill anyone. So there definitely is a drawback to those champions in contrast to your claims. Mages on the other hand are safer, deal damage from range and are often able to dish out lots of AoE damage more consistently if given at least a little protection. When ahead they can deal huge amounts of damage, maybe not as much burst damage as a fed assassin but still. When behind they don't have the biggest damage output, but they are still able to dish out damage from a safe position while also providing utility in the form of CC and/or shielding.[/quote]

[quote=Dyto][quote=Silverman43]I'm gonna be honest. Please base your points on real arguments because everything you are stating is solely based on your personal opinion. 1. Most mages do have a weaker early game yes. But this also varies with each champion. [[syndra]], [[neeko]], [[zoe]]... are all mages with a decent early game and are capable of getting solo kills, even against assassins. And not all assassins are strong early. [[kassadin]], [[diana]], [[yone]]... all need to scale in order to do something, unless you mess up really hard against them. Saying mages will always come from behind into midgame is just straight up false and not based on any arguments. Even if they don't have much early power, they often have defensive abilities ([[rebirth]], [[void shift]], [[molten shield]], [[command: protect]]...), defensive items ([[seeker's armguard]], [[verdant barrier]]), defensive runes ([[nullifying orb]], [[biscuit delivery]], [[perfect timing]]...) and defensive summoner spells ([[barrier]], [[heal]], [[cleanse]]). It's not hard to be at least even with your opponent while coming into midgame. It's not a problem for mages to kill bruisers or tanks lategame. There is more than enough itemization available to counter them. Grievous wounds are the most accessible and cheapest they have ever been with [[oblivion orb]] costing only 800 gold, there is magic penetration on several items, [[riftmaker]] gives free true damage, [[liandry's anguish]] provides max HP burn AND magic resist shredding, [[demonic embrace]] also grants max HP burn... 2. There are enough reasons to pick mages over other classes. Let's compare with assassins. An assassin usually goes in, bursts one target and tries to get out. (Of course there are exceptions that can deal AoE damage, but that aside.) While doing so, they are extremely vulnerable to getting CCed or bursted down before being able to do anything. Assassins are also extremely feast or famine, they can take over games if fed, but if they are behind they don't have any utility and they often won't be able to solo kill anyone. So there definitely is a drawback to those champions in contrast to your claims. Mages on the other hand are safer, deal damage from range and are often able to dish out lots of AoE damage more consistently if given at least a little protection. When ahead they can deal huge amounts of damage, maybe not as much burst damage as a fed assassin but still. When behind they don't have the biggest damage output, but they are still able to dish out damage from a safe position while also providing utility in the form of CC and/or shielding.[/quote] Right there .... in your first argument you kind of nailed it ....weak early games ...and while its true some assasins have fairly weak early games they still can manage easier than most mages as far as being able to stay safe. Early game is where MOST games are won, yes Im aware comebacks happen and happen often, but again you're betting against yourself STILL by undermining the STRONGEST points of the game. Its hard to make a rational argument on champion balance based on statistics though because riot mostly makes the available statistics useless by using a matchmaking system that NO other competitive game uses, whereas most competitive games search to keep teams roughly the same skill and see what happens, riot sees fit to weigh for, or against you based on your winrate to keep you as close to 50% as possible ( this effectively hides statistics that would prove one champion is way too strong in comparison to other champions since nearly every champ is ONLY a reflection of their matchmaking system ).[/quote]

[quote=Fruxo][quote=Dyto]No sir, its you refusing to see the point. The point is that even if they can carry from these non-mage positions the effort needed is much greater than if you just pick correctly[/quote] The problem here is your "point" is based on your own personal opinion so it really doesn't matter. :)[/quote]

[quote=Tauricus2017]Exactly, this really isn't any objective problem with the game. It is only how you see it and not how it really is. Not all people have problems you are stating and some people even consider mages better then any other class in the game. I don't even really get the point of this thread. To me it just seems like you would be complaining about random stuff without any deeper meaning or purpose :/[/quote]