MrPen boots not really worth it (with a graph)

[quote=CosmoVibe]First of all, please label your graphs. It took me a minute to figure out what your x and y axes were, which doesn't really help your readers when they're trying to understand your argument. Second of all, you need to consider the practicality of each scenario. I cannot stress how important strategy is when theorycrafting. Theorycrafting is 5% math, 95% strategy. Cooldown boots do not significantly increase your damage output until you stay in combat for an extended period of time. For casters that rely on consistent damage output, such as Cassiopeia or Vladimir, cooldown might be useful. However, for burst casters, magic penetration maximizes your burst damage, which highlights the role of your champion. This is a strategy game, so you need to pick a strategy that best fits your situation. If cooldown boots were ALWAYS better than magic penetration boots or vice-versa, then you'd have a useless item and the game would become a little bit more degenerate. Third, in order to properly compare two item builds, you can't just pick statistics randomly. They need to be equal in value in order to be compared. A Deathcap is clearly better than a Blasting Wand, but you need more money for a Deathcap. If you don't have enough money, what is the best choice/strategy to choose? If you want to compare the potential of two different item paths, make sure their gold values are equivalent.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Temzilla] Total Damage/ ( Cooldown * 1-CDR ) basically.[/quote] Ok, thanks.[/quote]

[quote=Traa1703][quote=CosmoVibe] First of all, please label your graphs. It took me a minute to figure out what your x and y axes were, which doesn't really help your readers when they're trying to understand your argument. [/quote] Sorry if you had problem understanding the graphs, but I assumed it was fairly obvious what the x- an y-axis meant. [quote=CosmoVibe] Second of all, you need to consider the practicality of each scenario. I cannot stress how important strategy is when theorycrafting. Theorycrafting is 5% math, 95% strategy. Cooldown boots do not significantly increase your damage output until you stay in combat for an extended period of time. For casters that rely on consistent damage output, such as Cassiopeia or Vladimir, cooldown might be useful. However, for burst casters, magic penetration maximizes your burst damage, which highlights the role of your champion. This is a strategy game, so you need to pick a strategy that best fits your situation. If cooldown boots were ALWAYS better than magic penetration boots or vice-versa, then you'd have a useless item and the game would become a little bit more degenerate. [/quote] I think you misunderstood my post so I'll repeat it for you. [[Sorcerer's Shoes]] are an early game item. It starts being worse then other items at around 60 Mr (depending on the skill). Afterwards 60 Mr you would be just as fine with other items at a comparable price, say [[Blasting Wand]] or [[Ionian Boots of Lucidity]]. But the difference is that [[Blasting Wand]] can be built into late game items and Cdr scales very well troughout the game, flat MrPen however, does not. Then i said that in order to delay [[Sorcerer's Shoes]] turning into dead weight one could buy [[Haunting Guise]] to push the amount of Mr needed to counter you effectively to around 80 Mr. [[Haunting Guise]] is as cost effective as [[Needlessly Large Rod]], if not more considering it gives health and Ap in addition to the MrPen. On champions such as Mordekaiser who has plain bad Ap ratios I would imagine [[Haunting Guise]] being the superior early- to mid game damage item. [quote=CosmoVibe] Third, in order to properly compare two item builds, you can't just pick statistics randomly. They need to be equal in value in order to be compared. A Deathcap is clearly better than a Blasting Wand, but you need more money for a Deathcap. If you don't have enough money, what is the best choice/strategy to choose? If you want to compare the potential of two different item paths, make sure their gold values are equivalent. [/quote] I'm starting to think you didn't even read the OP. I never mentioned any deathcap and all items compared were at similar prices. In case you don't know, here are the prices: [[Sorcerer's Shoes]] cost 1100 gold [[Ionian Boots of Lucidity]] cost 1000 gold [[Haunting Guise]] cost 1485 gold In addition I'm only comparing [[Sorcerer's Shoes]] and [[Ionian Boots of Lucidity]]. The only reazon [[Haunting Guise]] was mentioned was, the theory crafting part were I proposed using it together with [[Sorcerer's Shoes]] to actually make it cost effective.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Traa1703] [[Sorcerer's Shoes]] cost 1100 gold [[Ionian Boots of Lucidity]] cost [u]1050[/u] gold [[Haunting Guise]] cost 1485 gold[/quote] Fix'd ALL MrP are lategame stats..[/quote]

[quote=CosmoVibe][quote=Traa1703]Sorry if you had problem understanding the graphs, but I assumed it was fairly obvious what the x- an y-axis meant.[/quote] Never ever assume this. In some cases there might be a discrepancy you never thought of, and either way it's a good habit that saves readers time. [quote=Traa1703]I think you misunderstood my post so I'll repeat it for you. [[Sorcerer's Shoes]] are an early game item. It starts being worse then other items at around 60 Mr (depending on the skill). Afterwards 60 Mr you would be just as fine with other items at a comparable price, say [[Blasting Wand]] or [[Ionian Boots of Lucidity]]. But the difference is that [[Blasting Wand]] can be built into late game items and Cdr scales very well troughout the game, flat MrPen however, does not. Then i said that in order to delay [[Sorcerer's Shoes]] turning into dead weight one could buy [[Haunting Guise]] to push the amount of Mr needed to counter you effectively to around 80 Mr. [[Haunting Guise]] is as cost effective as [[Needlessly Large Rod]], if not more considering it gives health and Ap in addition to the MrPen. On champions such as Mordekaiser who has plain bad Ap ratios I would imagine [[Haunting Guise]] being the superior early- to mid game damage item. [/quote] Lots of fallacies here. Mathematically speaking, CDR scales poorly early game, and flat magic penetration scales well as long as the enemy doesn't have large amounts of magic resist (multiplicative magic penetration scales well as long as the enemy HAS large amounts of magic resist). You also forgot to realize that the more AP you have, the better that penetration scales. With around 200 AP and masteries, flat penetration from shoes scales well into enemies with over 120 MR. http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/forum/theorycrafting/not-enough-haunting-guise-5135?page=1 But this still ignores my argument about strategy almost entirely. [quote=Traa1703]I'm starting to think you didn't even read the OP. I never mentioned any deathcap and all items compared were at similar prices. In case you don't know, here are the prices: [[Sorcerer's Shoes]] cost 1100 gold [[Ionian Boots of Lucidity]] cost 1000 gold [[Haunting Guise]] cost 1485 gold In addition I'm only comparing [[Sorcerer's Shoes]] and [[Ionian Boots of Lucidity]]. The only reazon [[Haunting Guise]] was mentioned was, the theory crafting part were I proposed using it together with [[Sorcerer's Shoes]] to actually make it cost effective. [/quote] Pardon me, I didn't mention that the Deathcap comparison was an example of what I meant by comparing equal value item builds. Regardless, there are many ways to make any of these item cost effective, but it still depends on situational cases. Refer to my second point.[/quote]

[quote=HuntrKilr]you did'nt provide NUMBERS. this means that the MrP is based on some arbitrary amount of damage compared to the CdR. i want to see this graph on [[noxious trap]] or [[glacial storm]] or [[defile]]. how about early game fiddles with an abbyssal scepter. how about after a full item build and blue/baron buff. (CdR is hardcapped) Why the hell do you assume you are running specific runes? as a corrollary, why runes but not masteries? try buying CdR boots on veigar. try buying CdR boots on kog'maw. try building CdR boots on Karthus. try buying CdR boots on fiddlesticks. what you will find is that CdR boots suck on MANY mages. on a BURST MAGE, CdR does nothing usefull. theory crafting with math alone isn't good if your strategy sucks. for example, [[requiem]] tends to be off cooldown for large amounts of time, and [[lay waste]] and [[defile]] are so short cooldown that nobody cares about CdR, so you would NEVER build CdR boots on karthus. your title and graph are misleading because they support a very situational item while decrying a much more commonly good (on casters) item.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=HuntrKilr] you did'nt provide NUMBERS. this means that the MrP is based on some arbitrary amount of damage compared to the CdR. i want to see this graph on [[crowstorm]] or [[decrepify]] or [[defile]]. how about early game fiddles with an abbyssal scepter. how about after a full item build and blue/baron buff. (CdR is hardcapped) try buying CdR boots on veigar. try buying CdR boots on kog'maw. try building CdR boots on Karthus. try buying CdR boots on fiddlesticks. what you will find is that CdR boots suck on MANY mages. on a BURST MAGE, CdR does nothing usefull. theory crafting with math alone isn't good if your strategy sucks. [/quote] CDR is actually one of the best laning stats for fiddlesticks. As for CDR being hard capped at 40%, That's exactly why CDR boots are bad on characters who have easy access to CDR items. Most characters who need CDR, get it through their core build instead of through boots. Only person i can think of who doesn't is [[Vladimir]].[/quote]

[quote=Traa1703][quote=HuntrKilr] you did'nt provide NUMBERS. this means that the MrP is based on some arbitrary amount of damage compared to the CdR. i want to see this graph on [[noxious trap]] or [[glacial storm]] or [[defile]]. how about early game fiddles with an abbyssal scepter. how about after a full item build and blue/baron buff. (CdR is hardcapped) Why the hell do you assume you are running specific runes? as a corrollary, why runes but not masteries? try buying CdR boots on veigar. try buying CdR boots on kog'maw. try building CdR boots on Karthus. try buying CdR boots on fiddlesticks. what you will find is that CdR boots suck on MANY mages. on a BURST MAGE, CdR does nothing usefull. theory crafting with math alone isn't good if your strategy sucks. for example, [[requiem]] tends to be off cooldown for large amounts of time, and [[lay waste]] and [[defile]] are so short cooldown that nobody cares about CdR, so you would NEVER build CdR boots on karthus. your title and graph are misleading because they support a very situational item while decrying a much more commonly good (on casters) item. [/quote] Actually graphs for the spells you mention going [[Sorcerer's Shoes]] into [[Haunting Guise]] would be better then similarly priced AP because they have low AP ratios compared to their base damage. I would also like you to explain what you mean with strategy. Because I very clearly describe the strategy. I will explain what the graph shows one last time: It shows that Sorcerer's shoes is pretty useless unless followed up by more flat Mr resist, Haunting Guise.[/quote]

[quote=CosmoVibe][quote=Traa1703]I would also like you to explain what you mean with strategy. Because I very clearly describe the strategy. I will explain what the graph shows one last time: It shows that Sorcerer's shoes is pretty useless unless followed up by more flat Mr resist, Haunting Guise. [/quote] A strategy is a plan of action for a situation that might arise. Your graphs give some statistics on the different builds, but you don't really discuss which ones are viable in what kinds of situations. For example, a statement like "Magic resist is good against casters." would be based on game mechanics. There is no calculations involved. It is simply a rule defined by the game, and should be considered common knowledge. "Flat magic penetration scales well into late game." would a statement based on math. In order to show that this statement is true, you must use mathematics to calculate the result, knowing the rules of the game. "If you're playing a burst caster, it is generally better to buy magic penetration than cooldown reduction" is a statement based on strategy. It argues something that is usually true, but cannot always be true because different situations can call for different plans of actions. Just because this plan of action works here, doesn't mean it will always work.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]What if I don't buy Haunting Guise? And I when I build a Void Staff, I always swap out Sorcerer's Shoes for Ionian Boots (except on Heimerdinger). As such, your chart is invalid![/quote]