Anyone else read about the apparent jungle remake?

[quote=Xenasis][quote=caucheka] always fucking ruining games especially after the fucking tournament. [/quote] Wards.[/quote]

[quote=caucheka]well excuse me for having to buy cloth armor and 5 pots when im jungling.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]Well excuse your support for not buying wards/taking CV[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]To everyone else: WARDS ARE NOT THE ANSWER. 1. Wards are expensive. Choosing to ward means you're hurting your own jungle start-up. The only ones who can handle that is Warwick and Nunu who have massive sustains. 2. A ward will not stop Nunu from strolling into your Wraith camp and Consuming a blue Wraith in UNDER 5 SECONDS. @Xenasis: I did not forget. You're missing the points in your own statements. You're just re-iterating my points, but twisting them to your own devices. Clairvoyance, Wards, etc are all included in tools that can be utilized for Counter-Jungling. But they are all burden-of-knowledge type methods that require teams to be coordinated and ASSUME that counter-jungling has to take place. Ergo -> Only way to beat counter-jungling is counter-jungling. (Counter-jungling is not a solo-activity, it can be expanded to a team coordinated strategy through use of CV, or allies helping invade the jungle, etc) Counter-jungling came up as something else to do -> BECAUSE staying in your own jungle is inefficient. You made your claim without seeing the origin of your own point. Also, Your words: "Make it easier for low level summoners, sure. Don't dumb it down though" That statement is a [u]contradiction[/u] to itself. The ease of the jungle, and the complexity are inclusive of each other. Change one and the other must change. There's no "other option" to choose here. Also, CV and Wards are not always available. It is not mandatory in solo-queue or ranked, because forcing the support buy wards and CV is a player community choice. It is not something Riot supports, just something they accept for the moment. Clairvoyance is getting reworked because they dislike it's current function, so you MAY NOT use it to support this argument. In short: Saying "Wards" or "CV" is an invalid argument. You're in the wrong. Re-think your view of jungling.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=JunSupport] To everyone else: WARDS ARE NOT THE ANSWER. 1. Wards are expensive. Choosing to ward means you're hurting your own jungle start-up. The only ones who can handle that is Warwick and Nunu who have massive sustains. 2. A ward will not stop Nunu from strolling into your Wraith camp and Consuming a blue Wraith in UNDER 5 SECONDS. @Xenasis: I did not forget. You're missing the points in your own statements. You're just re-iterating my points, but twisting them to your own devices. Clairvoyance, Wards, etc are all included in tools that can be utilized for Counter-Jungling. But they are all burden-of-knowledge type methods that require teams to be coordinated and ASSUME that counter-jungling has to take place. Ergo -> Only way to beat counter-jungling is counter-jungling. Counter-jungling came up as something else to do -> BECAUSE staying in your own jungle is inefficient. You made your claim without seeing the origin of your own point. Also, Your words: "Make it easier for low level summoners, sure. Don't dumb it down though" That statement is a [u]contradiction[/u] to itself. The ease of the jungle, and the complexity are inclusive of each other. Change one and the other must change. There's no "other option" to choose here. Also, CV and Wards are not always available. It is not mandatory in solo-queue or ranked, because forcing the support buy wards and CV is a player community choice. It is not something Riot supports, just something they accept for the moment. Clairvoyance is getting reworked because they dislike it's current function, so you MAY NOT use it to support this argument. [/quote] Since we have no idea what CV's getting reworked into - and it's fine at the moment, it's about as valid to support my argument as saying that "You can't counter jungle anyway since the nerf" to support the nerf. As I said, wards WILL stop counter jungling. A well placed ward on the river will let you see Nunu before he gets to the wraith. He might steal it, sure, but if your mid's on the ball then his jungle will be harmed by taking a huge amount of damage. At the start of the game someone should be guarding your wraiths anyway. I didn't imply you should ward it yourself, supports have pretty much unlimited wards. They should pretty much only be buying wards, and their GP10 items support that. If I wasn't re-iterating your points and bending them to my point of view, that would be like countering "Coke's good for your teeth" with "actually, scientific evidence has found the contrary" - rather than "WELL IT TASTES NICE" or something. If you think counter jungling is done because you don't have anything else to kill, then you are gravely mistaken. You do it to harm the opponent's jungle, make them lose out on XP, and let your lanes free farm for that much longer. Hell, taking golems against Tryndamere at level 1, for example, REALLY screws him over, and he can't do much else after killing blue buff, and his jungle is GREATLY worse. It would be better for the other jungler to start in his own golems and a LOT safer, but he's took the risk. It would be better for Nunu to take cloth armour + 5 health potions, but most good Nunus take Boots + pot + ward. They do this for a safer counter jungle. They could jungle MUCH easier and MUCH safer by staying in their own jungle, with faster/similar times too. Even without wards, it takes common sense to know that Shaco might be sitting at your red buff, or Nunu/Trundle might start at your golems. It takes a little knowledge and experience, and some judgement to know when to expect a counter jungle and to stop it. I remember a few weeks ago, I was against a Nunu as Nocturne. I got a team mate to scare him off from my golems and he didn't touch my Wraiths, but he did leave a ward, as Nunus do, at my red buff. Anticipating his arrival, I pinged for a team mate to come when I expected him to arrive as I waited in the brush, needless to say, we got the kill. Don't try and imply that wards are the only possible way to ever stop a counter jungle, as that's quite the opposite. Wards/CV are one of many (but perhaps, the easiest to understand for newer players) ways to stop a counter jungle. They're BY FAR the easiest example. My point IS valid. Level 1 summoners WON'T try and counter jungle each other. Think of it this way. Imagine if everybody started with Warwick. Two Warwicks were jungling at summoner level 1. They can do that fine and dandy in their own jungle, but they won't - and likely can't successfully, counter jungle each other. Making it easier for low level summoners doesn't HAVE to be detrimental to experienced summoners. For example, lowering the damage on blue/red buff or something would still keep counter jungling as effective. Bad example but you get the point. Anyway, time to sleep.[/quote]

[quote=PotatisFarfar]Meh, i never like when they dumb things down. LoL's jungle is so un conplicated already... This just feels like pushing it to far...[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Xenasis: CV is being changes so it doesn't do it's current global reveal usage. It will be receiving an entirely new purpose. So it's not a valid point. You'd know this if you had any insight on Riot's views. Clearly, you are not aware of any of Riot's views or statements on any of this. I highly recommend you get become more familiar with the devTracker. Since you don't know any of Riot's views at this point that means you're lacking in information that I have to keep explaining, we're just going to keep going back and forth until one of us decides to exit. There's no point in discussing this with someone lacks a view of the big picture.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=JunSupport] @Xenasis: CV is being changes so it doesn't do it's current global reveal usage. It will be receiving an entirely new purpose. So it's not a valid point. You'd know this if you had any insight on Riot's views. Clearly, you are not aware of any of Riot's views or statements on any of this. I highly recommend you get become more familiar with the devTracker. Since you don't know any of Riot's views at this point that means you're lacking in information that I have to keep explaining, we're just going to keep going back and forth until one of us decides to exit. There's no point in discussing this with someone lacks a view of the big picture. [/quote] It's not my fault I'm an EU summoner. Over there - we pretty much get told nothing - and don't have a Dev Tracker, just because it would show how little posts we actually got - which is likely the reason the EU don't get these fancy things. Guinsoo, the person who stated it on Twitter, has made a single thread on EU so far. It was to "answer questions". He opened the thread, waited 25 pages, answered like 3 questions, and has never posted since. I really wish we had a Dev Tracker, but to be honest I'd rather they worked on the servers which give a 1 and a half hour queue at anything that isn't mid day - only to be greeted with "Session Closed" or "Server Busy" after the queue. I'm not describing the post-change jungle at all - I'm merely presenting the current one, and stating that there clearly is no use in dumbing it down when there could EASILY be a system in place which makes it easier for low level summoners to jungle without dumbing it down. I find it insulting that you don't think I see the "big picture" - when I presented you with a whole paragraph on it - with the "Warwick" scenario. I presented the scenario in which a low level summoner could EASILY jungle, without having to worry about counter jungling. I find it amusing that you're insulting my knowledge on the subject when you stated that the only reason people counter jungle is because they have nothing to do in their jungle - "Counter-jungling came up as something else to do -> BECAUSE staying in your own jungle is inefficient." You greatly implied that staying in your jungle would result in not enough creeps to kill because you're out of creeps in your own jungle. You have absolutely no idea why people counter jungle OR why people do it. Don't criticize my knowledge on the subject (of which I do not have access to since I'm an EU summoner anyway - but I read the tweets) when you are unsure as to what the subject actually is. That's like arguing for a change to Needlessly Large Rod when you don't know what that item is and can't recall ever seeing one or knowing what it does.[/quote]

[quote=caucheka]you can just go check the us forums. also [quote]I didn't imply you should ward it yourself, supports have pretty much unlimited wards. They should pretty much only be buying wards, and their GP10 items support that.[/quote] enjoy having a useless champion on your team.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=Xenasis]I didn't imply you should ward it yourself, supports have pretty much unlimited wards. They should pretty much only be buying wards, and their GP10 items support that.[/quote] Actually... Bottom lane support buys gp10 because they don't farm, not because they are using that money to buy tons of wards.[/quote]