A Different Perspective on Shaco

[quote=Tol Eressea]Greetings all, I have recently posted a guide suggesting that Shaco can be played as Tanky DPS in more competitive/ranked scenes, where the regular super-squish assassin just doesn't survive. Here is the link to the guide: http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/shaco-unstoppable-jungle-tanky-dps-102477 Specifically I am looking feedback on the following: [b]1) Is this guide detailed/comprehensive enough?[/b] I have left out common sections such as Backdooring, where to play wards, etc. [b]2) Do you think it is truly viable in higher ELOs?[/b] As I myself am not a 2k+ player, I have no recourse for verifying whether it does or does not work. It'd be really terrific if some "higher-class" players would give it a run-through and see how it compares. Thanks in advance for any and all replies, Tol Eressea[/quote]

[quote=Searz]I've only played Shaco a few times and I almost never see him at 1500elo, so I can't give you tips about that. But I do know sumthin', sumthin' about the masteries and runes you should be using. AD quints. The AD mastery. Skip the crit damage mastery or the attack speed mastery. Why AD? Because it speeds up your jungle and makes your early ganks really scary. Even in lategame they don't taper off much since you have a 100% crit "chance" skill and your knife scales with AD.[/quote]

[quote=Tol Eressea]Fair enough - I haven't play-tested the AD quints much with this. The brute force mastery has always seemed a waste to me, 3 points for 3 AD, 6 when using Deceive... and then some. I see. I do wonder why you'd recommend +3 AD verses 10% increased critical damage? Wouldn't the latter be better scaling late-game for sure? I'll give it a try and see how it goes :) Thanks very much for the feedback.[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]AD mastery is good, as is minion damage. I'd say get crit damage just to help Deceive. As for the build, it's a little implausible because the only way a Shaco is going to get farmed enough to build that is if he backdoors and farms constantly. The problem with that is that your build is tapered for teamfights, not backdooring, defeating the purpose of the farm in the first place.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]Think about it this way: the crit damage mastery increases the damage of your crits by 10%, BUT the total damage of your crit won't go up 10%. With a normal crit (200% of normal damage) the damage of your crit will go up by 5%. That's not all that. It's worth more on Shaco since he has a "crit on command", but I still think I'd pick AS over the crit damage since AS helps your jungling way more. I'd also pick up Offensive Mastery for even better jungling.[/quote]

[quote=Tol Eressea][quote]As for the build, it's a little implausible because the only way a Shaco is going to get farmed enough to build that is if he backdoors and farms constantly. The problem with that is that your build is tapered for teamfights, not backdooring, defeating the purpose of the farm in the first place.[/quote] First, let me say I very much appreciate you taking the time to read and critique the guide. [u]With regard to its plausibility:[/u] You are correct - this is an expensive build to be sure. This is the reason that I built out some variations on it and compared them to a popular Mobafire Shaco build. Perhaps I need to indicate this more strongly in the build, but I believe the strength of it is that the core - by itself - is very strong. Building [icon=Wriggle's Lantern],[icon=Mercury's Treads],[icon=Trinity Force], and [icon=Warmog's Armor] gives you the following: [h4][u]Stat Highlights:[/u] Cost: 9870g HP: 3559 Effective HP: 7085 HP/5: 62.7 Mana: 1180 Armor: 120.69 MR: 77.5 Attk Sp: 1.271 AD: 177 AP: 30 Ar Pen: 21 Crit Chance: 17% Movement: 437[/h4] This is a very moderate price (compared to the majority of guides I have read) for some very strong items. Simply adding the [icon=Negatron Cloak]Negatron Cloak a little earlier or at the end and you're covered for AP bursters as well. Now, as for backdooring/farming - so far in my testing [i]this guide does not in any way hamper either of these things[/i]. If anything, the inherent tankyness and survivability allows you to do it easier. He retains all of the tricks that make him so hard to kill, and is running just about 100% more survivability. TriForce + Wriggle's enables him to easily clear minion waves and towers, and he can do it much more safely. There is nothing worse than a backdoor that turns into a 4v5 because you stayed in JUST too long and they got you as a result. Obviously, this is a skill/experience issue, but you get the idea. He can backdoor, and the 437 speed allows him to be in the teamfight when it's time. [quote]It's worth more on Shaco since he has a "crit on command", but I still think I'd pick AS over the crit damage since AS helps your jungling way more. I'd also pick up Offensive Mastery for even better jungling.[/quote] I'm going to try this out some more when I have some time (probably next week - traveling to a wedding this weekend...). [edit]I've updated the guide with a concern section. I'll make changes to masteries and the like when I've had a chance to try them for a few games and compare.[/edit][/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]I can understand the rationale behind wanting to be in teamfights, but Shaco is a cleanup character. If your goal is to be at the teamfight when it starts, you're not going to do much - UNLESS you've got said tanky build. Now the problem here is that Shaco needs to split push, but he doesn't need any sort of defense in order to do it - maybe a Banshee's Veil, but any Shaco will be able to evade an incoming gank from 1 or 2 people. And if the enemy team sends more, you may die, but your team had better be doing Baron or pushing another tower in the meanwhile. That's Shaco's power - he forces the enemy team between initiating on a 4v5 under your tower, possibly taking casualties, while Shaco pushes into their base; or they run off to fight Shaco, in which case they waste time if they only send 1 or 2 people and they lose Baron or a tower if they send any more than 2. If Shaco isn't split pushing fast enough, he can't force that goal, which is why the general accepted split push build is something along the lines of Wriggles, Phantom Dancer, Black Cleaver, enabling you to push towers very quickly while being able to dash back to the field of battle after a teamfight is about to end and maybe pick off 2 or 3 people. The point is, you don't need tankiness if you're split pushing and you won't need it if you're doing cleanup duty. If your goal is to be in a teamfight from the start, you shouldn't be off pushing anyway. At least those are the thoughts I had while reading through this - granted, I'm sure it's a great build with a lot of potential, and I'll need to actually playtest it before I can make a good opinion.[/quote]

[quote=Tol Eressea][quote]Now the problem here is that Shaco needs to split push, but he doesn't need any sort of defense in order to do it - maybe a Banshee's Veil, but any Shaco will be able to evade an incoming gank from 1 or 2 people. And if the enemy team sends more, you may die, but your team had better be doing Baron or pushing another tower in the meanwhile. That's Shaco's power - he forces the enemy team between initiating on a 4v5 under your tower, possibly taking casualties, while Shaco pushes into their base; or they run off to fight Shaco, in which case they waste time if they only send 1 or 2 people and they lose Baron or a tower if they send any more than 2. If Shaco isn't split pushing fast enough, he can't force that goal, which is why the general accepted split push build is something along the lines of Wriggles, Phantom Dancer, Black Cleaver, enabling you to push towers very quickly while being able to dash back to the field of battle after a teamfight is about to end and maybe pick off 2 or 3 people. The point is, you don't need tankiness if you're split pushing and you won't need it if you're doing cleanup duty. If your goal is to be in a teamfight from the start, you shouldn't be off pushing anyway.[/quote] Believe me - I really do hear your logic. I have tried just about every variant of backdoor builds there are, and the proposal is basically that some tankiness + damage gives you a presence on the map that allows you to perform the same roles, while not being useless in one of the most key elements in a game - teamfighting. Split-pushing is not always the answer. In times that it is not, you need to be ready. The reason Shaco is a poor pick is because of the situation you frequently leave your team in, while the opponents choose whether or not you're a true threat to their tower. The sad fact is that I've been present for too many games wherein they decide giving me an inhib for winning the game is well worth it. In those moments, you want to be able to choose to be an asset. This makes you an asset, not a liability. They need to be forced to pay attention to you, in all situations. Again, I really appreciate the debate. No build is perfect.[/quote]

[quote=kavinh]no clue why u'd get trinity force on a shaco if ur building him tank switch it for a bloodrazor/ghost blade. mercury threads are alright but i still find the movement speed 5 boots better since shaco has a built in flash+ stealth that .25second short off the stun or silence won't be worth as much as the amount of running u can do especially since it'll help u backdoor with shaco alot easier.[/quote]

[quote=Hanuul]Ah I see why you would think tanky, teamfights and all but I also thought of a tanky shaco then I remembered his ult which is an exact replica cept for items and it only does 75% of your damage and gets dealt to 150%. You can have 2 tanks in the same box lolololol. Also another way for Shaco to be in teamfights is AP shaco, throw knife then use ult, send in clone to half health and stuff. Do note im about to read your guide.[/quote]