Jatt's got an 84% win ratio on Udyr as a top ranked player, using Phoenix. I'll try to explain why I think he's been so successful.
Jatt does use AS reds and quints, flat armor yellows, and flat MR blues.
I have a page very similar I've made and I've used them both.
The difference to be honest is not in clear times or damage or anything, although with AS runes you -do- clear much faster on Phoenix.
The real difference is in which case each stance is strong, when they are strong, and why they are strong respectively. That's what you need to be considering. One stance is not superior to the other, instead they are strong for very different reasons.
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Method to jungle with Phoenix;
-Turtle stance first and then Phoenix for damage. This is how you clear camps without taking much damage, and get your 3rd attack to clear the camps. At that point you just repeat, turtle into Phoenix again. Since you will not build Wriggle's, you will need to remember this cycle combo for the whole jungle phase to keep your HP up for more effective ganks.
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Method to jungle with Tiger;
Tiger first, apply the DoT, and then Turtle, so the minion takes damage from your DoT and you simply shield what damage they will deal after. Then you will want to hesitate so to speak, and reverse it, so that you are turtle only for shield, and using Tiger to get your AS buff. Correct application of the skill order will allow fast and healthy jungle speeds. Later with Wriggle's lantern you will not need turtle at all for jungle.
Phoenix stance advantages:
-Incredible jungle speed, much faster than Tiger. This puts more gold into your pocket, and more levels on your champion. He also finishes the jungle healthier at the early levels, which may allow you to gank faster or before even basing. I've full cleared, and ganked top with red buff on more than one occasion before basing. It's a quick level 4, and with bear/turtle/lvl 2 phoenix, you can usually flash stun/turtle/phoenix and get the kill without dieing. Tiger realistically cannot gank top at this point, or nearly as quickly.
-No wriggles means no free wards, but it also means Recurve bow and MR. An early wit's end/phoenix stance Udyr is far superior in terms of damage output to an early Tiger Stance/Wriggle's Udyr. I would never have believed it if I hadn't tried it myself recently, but the AoE on Phoenix stance is really quite huge. It's comparable to Kassadin's AoE puke, but I think it may even be slightly longer range.
-Phoenix stance has enough built in damage that it allows you to build tanky early, and still have a really healthy damage output. I rush Wit's end, and immediately rush Randuin's and a Frozen Mallet afterwards. The result is a super tanky Udyr who still does massive damage, and can stick to his target's. I've really begun to love Phoenix Stance Udyr.
-Stronger mid game, when he can build super tanky and still output a lot of damage.
A good Phoenix build might look like Wit's end, Randuin's, Frozen Mallet, Banshee's Veil, ending potentially with Madred's Bloodrazor's or GA.
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Tiger stance advantages;
-Single target sustained physical burst damage.
-Scales slightly better into end game when you use a standard "meta golems" build. DoT an enemy with your Tiger, shift into turtle, and then back for your AS buff. Can build lots of damage, and little attack speed as a result, which scales into both the DoT and uses the AS passive on Tiger more effectively.
A good Tiger build might look like Atma's, Trinity, Force, Warmogg's, and end with Infinity Edge or Guardian's Angel.
Jatt does use AS reds and quints, flat armor yellows, and flat MR blues.
I have a page very similar I've made and I've used them both.
The difference to be honest is not in clear times or damage or anything, although with AS runes you -do- clear much faster on Phoenix.
The real difference is in which case each stance is strong, when they are strong, and why they are strong respectively. That's what you need to be considering. One stance is not superior to the other, instead they are strong for very different reasons.
---
Method to jungle with Phoenix;
-Turtle stance first and then Phoenix for damage. This is how you clear camps without taking much damage, and get your 3rd attack to clear the camps. At that point you just repeat, turtle into Phoenix again. Since you will not build Wriggle's, you will need to remember this cycle combo for the whole jungle phase to keep your HP up for more effective ganks.
---
Method to jungle with Tiger;
Tiger first, apply the DoT, and then Turtle, so the minion takes damage from your DoT and you simply shield what damage they will deal after. Then you will want to hesitate so to speak, and reverse it, so that you are turtle only for shield, and using Tiger to get your AS buff. Correct application of the skill order will allow fast and healthy jungle speeds. Later with Wriggle's lantern you will not need turtle at all for jungle.
Phoenix stance advantages:
-Incredible jungle speed, much faster than Tiger. This puts more gold into your pocket, and more levels on your champion. He also finishes the jungle healthier at the early levels, which may allow you to gank faster or before even basing. I've full cleared, and ganked top with red buff on more than one occasion before basing. It's a quick level 4, and with bear/turtle/lvl 2 phoenix, you can usually flash stun/turtle/phoenix and get the kill without dieing. Tiger realistically cannot gank top at this point, or nearly as quickly.
-No wriggles means no free wards, but it also means Recurve bow and MR. An early wit's end/phoenix stance Udyr is far superior in terms of damage output to an early Tiger Stance/Wriggle's Udyr. I would never have believed it if I hadn't tried it myself recently, but the AoE on Phoenix stance is really quite huge. It's comparable to Kassadin's AoE puke, but I think it may even be slightly longer range.
-Phoenix stance has enough built in damage that it allows you to build tanky early, and still have a really healthy damage output. I rush Wit's end, and immediately rush Randuin's and a Frozen Mallet afterwards. The result is a super tanky Udyr who still does massive damage, and can stick to his target's. I've really begun to love Phoenix Stance Udyr.
-Stronger mid game, when he can build super tanky and still output a lot of damage.
A good Phoenix build might look like Wit's end, Randuin's, Frozen Mallet, Banshee's Veil, ending potentially with Madred's Bloodrazor's or GA.
---
Tiger stance advantages;
-Single target sustained physical burst damage.
-Scales slightly better into end game when you use a standard "meta golems" build. DoT an enemy with your Tiger, shift into turtle, and then back for your AS buff. Can build lots of damage, and little attack speed as a result, which scales into both the DoT and uses the AS passive on Tiger more effectively.
A good Tiger build might look like Atma's, Trinity, Force, Warmogg's, and end with Infinity Edge or Guardian's Angel.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
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Searz wrote:
You really can't lane with Udyr without skilling Tiger...
Rain man skills turtle and lanes Udyr.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
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^But I'm sure that's not after the nerfs.
If it is, he's still not skilling phoenix which is useless for the lane.
If it is, he's still not skilling phoenix which is useless for the lane.
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"MY WHOLE LIFE IS A WANK." - WTTNHK
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He maxes Turtle first and then Tiger.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
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DuffTime wrote:
Jatt does use AS reds and quints, flat armor yellows, and flat MR blues.
Nope.
Quoted:
Phoenix stance advantages:
He also finishes the jungle healthier at the early levels
He also finishes the jungle healthier at the early levels
Nope. Tiger+AD quints has more HP in the jungle.
Quoted:
A good Phoenix build might look like Wit's end, Randuin's, Frozen Mallet
Never Mallet on Udyr.
I'm pretty sure that TF always is better on Udyr.
Quoted:
Method to jungle with Phoenix;
-Turtle stance first and then Phoenix for damage. This is how you clear camps without taking much damage, and get your 3rd attack to clear the camps. At that point you just repeat, turtle into Phoenix again. Since you will not build Wriggle's, you will need to remember this cycle combo for the whole jungle phase to keep your HP up for more effective ganks.
-Turtle stance first and then Phoenix for damage. This is how you clear camps without taking much damage, and get your 3rd attack to clear the camps. At that point you just repeat, turtle into Phoenix again. Since you will not build Wriggle's, you will need to remember this cycle combo for the whole jungle phase to keep your HP up for more effective ganks.
I've been using Phoenix->3attacks->Turtle->~4 attacks->keep repeating that cycle
I that's faster and you get AP for your shield with that. Not much, but it's still a good 8HP.
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I.e: Mike Rogers doesn't think it's rape unless the victim knows (s)he has been raped. Sounds legit.
I.e: Mike Rogers doesn't think it's rape unless the victim knows (s)he has been raped. Sounds legit.
He has like 3-4 Udyr pages. One of them is AS reds and quints, one is move speed quints, etc.
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You mentioned you don't have the runes. I assume that's why you feel you finish the camps with higher HP on Tiger.
Also, you're not doing the Turtle into Phoenix right, another reason why you think you finish the camps with higher HP on Tiger. Tiger first then Turtle is the correct way, so you're doing that stance right. Turtle first then Phoenix is the superior way for Phoenix.
Naturally, since your method is correct for Tiger, and your method and runes are incorrect for Phoenix, you're going to have lesser results than a player who has the correct runes and the correct method.
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That's odd. I do use Mallet on Udyr and I rape. *Shrug.
Never say never, as they say.
Udyr uses Trinity well no matter what stance, so your point is not invalid, but it's also not a must buy item, and comparing Trinity vrs Frozen Mallet is a mistake. They're different items with different functions.
I like to build my Phoenix stance as essentially a tank, using Wit's end and Phoenix for all of my damage output.
In this way, since my resistances are so high, I generally make more use out of the cheaper cost, HP, and Perma slow.
There are lots of games in which I buy TF though instead, for a more offensive build, as the 30% attack speed and the procs enhance both Phoenix stance's and your AD damage output substantially.
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You can Phoenix before Turtle, but it's just a waste of 50 - 100 HP at every camp. If you'd simply turtle first as you run up to the camp, about 1 second before starting, you will be able to phoenix immediately and not waste any time, speed is not affected.
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You mentioned you don't have the runes. I assume that's why you feel you finish the camps with higher HP on Tiger.
Also, you're not doing the Turtle into Phoenix right, another reason why you think you finish the camps with higher HP on Tiger. Tiger first then Turtle is the correct way, so you're doing that stance right. Turtle first then Phoenix is the superior way for Phoenix.
Naturally, since your method is correct for Tiger, and your method and runes are incorrect for Phoenix, you're going to have lesser results than a player who has the correct runes and the correct method.
---
That's odd. I do use Mallet on Udyr and I rape. *Shrug.
Never say never, as they say.
Udyr uses Trinity well no matter what stance, so your point is not invalid, but it's also not a must buy item, and comparing Trinity vrs Frozen Mallet is a mistake. They're different items with different functions.
I like to build my Phoenix stance as essentially a tank, using Wit's end and Phoenix for all of my damage output.
In this way, since my resistances are so high, I generally make more use out of the cheaper cost, HP, and Perma slow.
There are lots of games in which I buy TF though instead, for a more offensive build, as the 30% attack speed and the procs enhance both Phoenix stance's and your AD damage output substantially.
---
You can Phoenix before Turtle, but it's just a waste of 50 - 100 HP at every camp. If you'd simply turtle first as you run up to the camp, about 1 second before starting, you will be able to phoenix immediately and not waste any time, speed is not affected.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
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DuffTime wrote:
He has like 3-4 Udyr pages. One of them is AS reds and quints, one is move speed quints, etc.
I'm pretty sure he's not using AS quints anymore. They give ~5 sec less clear time on the first run. I'm amazed at how bad the are on Udyr..
Quoted:
You mentioned you don't have the runes. I assume that's why you feel you finish the camps with higher HP on Tiger.
I have all runes but AS quints, but since I got PotatisFarfar to try them for me I can easily say that they're bad. 03:25 clear time. MS quints finish at 03:30
Quoted:
That's odd. I do use Mallet on Udyr and I rape. *Shrug.
Very, very irrelevant --.--
I'm of the opinion that TF and Warmog both fill the role of Mallet better than mallet does for Udyr.
Quoted:
Also, you're not doing the Turtle into Phoenix right, another reason why you think you finish the camps with higher HP on Tiger. Tiger first then Turtle is the correct way, so you're doing that stance right. Turtle first then Phoenix is the superior way for Phoenix.
You can Phoenix before Turtle, but it's just a waste of 50 - 100 HP at every camp. If you'd simply turtle first as you run up to the camp, about 1 second before starting, you will be able to phoenix immediately and not waste any time, speed is not affected.
You can Phoenix before Turtle, but it's just a waste of 50 - 100 HP at every camp. If you'd simply turtle first as you run up to the camp, about 1 second before starting, you will be able to phoenix immediately and not waste any time, speed is not affected.
It might actually make a difference.
I'll try it out.
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Which is my main reason for focusing tiger and a bit of bear (for stuns)...
I like the way phoenix looks...but it's not near as good in lane as tiger imo.