Tiger stance vs Pheonix stance

[quote=Searz]I decided to investigate this topic further now that Udyr is a top tier jungler. [url=http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=0-3-0-3-0-4-2-1-1-0-0-0-0-0&tree3=0-2-1-1-4-0-1-1-2-0-3-0-0-0-0]1/14/15[/url] masteries Cloth+pots start Aggressive path, with start at wolves. [indent][[Tiger Stance]][/indent] [list] [*] 03:45 with AD quints+ArP marks and ~04:05 with MS quints+ArP marks. [*] About 10% more single target [u][b]DPS[/b][/u]. [*] MUCH better burst. You need to hit your target with ALL the waves of Phoenix and at least one "3rd attack" for it to deal ~10% less single target DPS. [*] Better sustainability. [*] As fast as Phoenix stance or faster [u]with [[Wriggle's Lantern]][/u]. [/list] [indent][[Phoenix Stance]][/indent] [list] [*] 03:30 with MS quints+AS marks and 03:35 with MS quints+ArP marks. [*] 03:25 with AS marks+AS quints and 03:28 with ArP quints+AS marks [*] About 30% more DPS than Phoenix on a single target per extra target hit by the waves AND every 3rd attack. That means that 2 targets hit = 20% more DPS than Tiger and 3 targets = 50% more DPS. [*] Doesn't need Wriggles to be really fast in the jungle. [/list] It seems to me like Phoenix is the superior choice right now. Tiger has monstrous early ganks, but Phoenix gets just as monstrous just because it's ~20% faster in the jungle. Maxing Phoenix and leaving Tiger at rank 3 also seems best. I've heard some people are starting with Phoenix, but later ranking Tiger, but I don't think that's good anymore. Opinions?[/quote]

[quote=Dante Rebellion]Pheonix is far superior... Did you see RS vs TSM? .. RS udyr maxed Pheonix, bear and turtle instead of tiger and still dominated the entire game... friggin unbelievable, I never thought that pheonix udyr would be so strong..[/quote]

[quote=Searz]How is that relevant? --.-- It's not like you're comparing them in any way..[/quote]

[quote=Dante Rebellion]its sort of targeted to: It seems to me like Phoenix is the superior choice right now. Tiger has monstrous early ganks, but Phoenix gets just as monstrous just because it's ~20% faster in the jungle. Maxing Phoenix and leaving Tiger at rank 3 also seems best. I've heard some people are starting with Phoenix, but later ranking Tiger, but I don't think that's good anymore. Opinions? Pheonix also has monstrous ganks, I would go as far to say BETTER early game ganks than tiger. Also people are just sticking to pheonix but revolving around a tanky/AS build[/quote]

[quote=Mazuran][quote=Searz] Maxing Phoenix and leaving Tiger at rank 3 also seems best. I've heard some people are starting with Phoenix, but later ranking Tiger, but I don't think that's good anymore. Opinions? [/quote] I've also heard the suggestion of having Lvl 5 Tiger and Phoenix, leaving Turtle and Bear at Lvl 4 apiece - so they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. The general agreement is that Phoenix is faster in the Jungle, but with less burst for ganks; while Tiger is slightly slower in the jungle but has more "OMG BUUUUURST" for ganks. - Tiger burst has an enormous psychological power - AFAIK it's one of the best early game bursts available, and having a chunk of your HP disappear that quickly from one single source can and will make people think twice about sticking around for another dose. - The super-fast Phoenix clear time means that you can be ganking a lane while you're a level, maybe 2, higher than the people on the lane. Which is of course a ridiculous advantage that early in the game. - And remember that for the Phoenix DPS to work, you need them to hold still, while Tiger DoT only needs the one attack. Can be problematic with slippery characters like Wukong, Shaco, etc. Not much there in the way of numbers, I'm afraid, but imo they're things that need to be taken into account when deciding which is better.[/quote]

[quote=samgoeslol]thats not quite true since phoenix stance deals about as much dmg as tiger its just less frontloaded (gotta hit all ticks T_T) and you get extra ap/ad from phoenix, so i dont rly see any rason to max anything else first greez sam[/quote]

[quote=Mazuran][quote=samgoeslol] thats not quite true since phoenix stance deals about as much dmg as tiger its just less frontloaded (gotta hit all ticks T_T) and you get extra ap/ad from phoenix, so i dont rly see any rason to max anything else first greez sam [/quote] ...? Although I'd forgotten about the bonus AD/AP from Phoenix. The AP doesn't do much for actual Phoenix DPS (the ratios suck from what I remember), but the AD is useful. In fact, does that bonus AD from Phoenix do anything for Tiger stance? More something to worry about mid-late game, perhaps.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]I've accounted for EVERYTHING (yes, that means the AD and AP from P stance too) in my rough comparisons of DPS. Tiger WILL HAVE 10 to 15% more single target DPS.[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]Kind of just boils down to Pure Tank Udyr vs. Tanky DPS Udyr. Currently I prefer Phoenix > Tiger because I play Solo top Udyr and WANT to push the lane, and Phoenix does a better AoE job of that. If I get any real dps items at all then Tiger stance is probably better. It's down to personal preference, really.[/quote]

[quote=Mazuran][quote=Searz] I've accounted for EVERYTHING (yes, that means the AD and AP from P stance too) in my rough comparisons of DPS. Tiger WILL HAVE 10 to 15% more single target DPS. [/quote] Fair enough. [quote=Nighthawk] Kind of just boils down to Pure Tank Udyr vs. Tanky DPS Udyr. Currently I prefer Phoenix > Tiger because I play Solo top Udyr and WANT to push the lane, and Phoenix does a better AoE job of that. If I get any real dps items at all then Tiger stance is probably better. It's down to personal preference, really. [/quote] Fair comment. Personal preference counts for a lot, after all. Lane Udyr is in my experience a different beast to jungle Udyr though - Laning you have to worry about pushing the lane or not, while a jungler doesn't have to worry about that sort of thing so much; Junglers have to juggle being able to clear the creep camps quickly and efficiently while still having enough single target DPS to pull off successful ganks - which is where the whole Phoenix vs Tiger debate seems to have come from in the first place.[/quote]