Great Mark of Mights + Life Steal runes = Mini...

[quote=Pølsemanden]Against a sona or soraka support, AD marks better against player. Against ad carry with armour seals, AD marks are better. Against a ad-carry without any armour+whatsoever, early armourpen is better. But i myself run armour yellows on ad carries(might throw in a mana seal or 2 if i'm playing very offensive) But imo. AD marks>Arpen marks(except for vayne AS marks all the way)[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=Pølsemanden] Against a sona or soraka support, AD marks better against player. Against ad carry with armour seals, AD marks are better. Against a ad-carry without any armour+whatsoever, early armourpen is better. [/quote] Shouldn't that be the other way around?[/quote]

[quote=Phoenix0000ff][quote=Pwnzor1130] *sigh* Looks like I have to make a spreadsheet. [/quote] You don't have to, I already did /mathflex AD marks are better just test it. EXAMPLE 30 armor and 100 armor targets assuming 100 damage with 13+ armor pen and 108.5 damage with no armor pen 1.) 30 armor test (level 1 decent armor example) 30 armor - 6 (sunder) - 13 (marks) = 11 11/2 (10% armor pen mastery + 40% last whisper) = 5.5 100/105.5 = .94786 1-.94786 ~ .05213 ~ 5% reduction 5% of 100 = 5 100-5 = [u]95 damage with armor pen marks[/u] 30 armor -6 (sunder) = 24 24/2 (10% armor pen mastery + 40% last whisper) = 12 100/112 = .89285 1- .89285 ~ .10714 ~ 11% reduction 11% of 108.5 = 11.935 108.5-11.935 = [u]96.565 damage with attack damage marks [/u] 2.) 100 armor test (level 18 decent armor example) 100 armor - 6 (sunder) - 13 (marks) = 81 81/2 (10% armor pen mastery + 40% last whisper) = 40.5 100/140.5 = .71174 1- .71174 ~ .28825 ~ 29% reduction 29% of 100 = 29 100-29 = [u]71 damage with armor pen marks[/u] 100 armor - 6 (sunder) = 94 94/2 (10% armor pen mastery + 40% last whisper) = 47 100/147 = .68027 1 - .68027 ~ .31972 ~ 32% reduction 32% of 108.5 = 34.72 108.5-34.72 = [u]73.78 damage with attack damage marks[/u] Conclusion even with low armor a last whisper with AD marks outperform ArP marks At higher levels the gap grows greater ....now rep me!!![/quote]

[quote=Pwnzor1130][quote=Phoenix0000ff] [quote=Pwnzor1130] *sigh* Looks like I have to make a spreadsheet. [/quote] You don't have to, I already did /mathflex AD marks are better just test it. EXAMPLE 30 armor and 100 armor targets assuming 100 damage with 13+ armor pen and 108.5 damage with no armor pen 1.) 30 armor test (level 1 decent armor example) 30 armor - 6 (sunder) - 13 (marks) = 11 11/2 (10% armor pen mastery + 40% last whisper) = 5.5 100/105.5 = .94786 1-.94786 ~ .05213 ~ 5% reduction 5% of 100 = 5 100-5 = [u]95 damage with armor pen marks[/u] 30 armor -6 (sunder) = 24 24/2 (10% armor pen mastery + 40% last whisper) = 12 100/112 = .89285 1- .89285 ~ .10714 ~ 11% reduction 11% of 108.5 = 11.935 108.5-11.935 = [u]96.565 damage with attack damage marks [/u] 2.) 100 armor test (level 18 decent armor example) 100 armor - 6 (sunder) - 13 (marks) = 81 81/2 (10% armor pen mastery + 40% last whisper) = 40.5 100/140.5 = .71174 1- .71174 ~ .28825 ~ 29% reduction 29% of 100 = 29 100-29 = [u]71 damage with armor pen marks[/u] 100 armor - 6 (sunder) = 94 94/2 (10% armor pen mastery + 40% last whisper) = 47 100/147 = .68027 1 - .68027 ~ .31972 ~ 32% reduction 32% of 108.5 = 34.72 108.5-34.72 = [u]73.78 damage with attack damage marks[/u] Conclusion even with low armor a last whisper with AD marks outperform ArP marks At higher levels the gap grows greater ....now rep me!!! [/quote] 1. Nobody has 30 armor by the time you have a Last Whisper. NOBODY. 2. % Armor Penetration is multiplicative, not additive. REDO YOUR NUMBERS. 3. Real-world examples please.[/quote]

[quote=Phoenix0000ff][quote=Pwnzor1130] 1. Nobody has 30 armor by the time you have a Last Whisper. NOBODY. [/quote] [img=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/ROBOT-/Problem.png] [quote=Pwnzor1130] 2. % Armor Penetration is multiplicative, not additive. REDO YOUR NUMBERS. [/quote] Since you asked so nicely 1.) 30 armor test (level 1 decent armor example) 30 armor - 6 (sunder) - 13 (marks) = 11 46% of 11 = 5.06 (46% armor pen mastery + last whisper) 11-5.06 = 5.94 100/105.94 = .943930 1-.943930 ~ .056069 ~ 6% reduction 6% of 100 = 6 100-6 = [u] 96 damage with armor pen marks[/u] 30 armor -6 (sunder) = 24 46% of 24 = 11.04 (46% armor pen mastery + last whisper) 24-11.04 = 12.96 100/112.96 = .88526 1- .88526 ~ .11473 ~ 11% reduction 11% of 108.5 = 11.935 108.5-11.935 = [u]96.565 damage with attack damage marks [/u] 2.) 100 armor test (level 18 decent armor example) 100 armor - 6 (sunder) - 13 (marks) = 81 46% of 81 = 37.26 (46% armor pen mastery + last whisper) 81- 37.26 = 49.74 100/149.74 = .66782 1- .66782 ~ .33217 ~ 33% reduction 33% of 100 = 33 100-33 = [u]67 damage with armor pen marks[/u] 100 armor - 6 (sunder) = 94 46% of 94 = 43.24 (46% armor pen mastery + last whisper) 94- 43.24 = 50.76 100/150.76 = .663305 1 - .663305 ~ .33669 ~ 34% reduction 34% of 108.5 = 36.89 108.5-36.89 = [u]71.61 damage with attack damage marks[/u] Conclusion = Same [quote=Pwnzor1130] 3. Real-world examples please. [/quote] DiY tell me if you can find a better example than high variance armor values[/quote]

[quote=Pwnzor1130]Alrighty then. Here's a real-world situation in bottom lane. This is would be a Caitlyn vs Vayne lane. This would be assuming that there are no armor runes, they both start with [[boots of speed]] and 3 [[health potion]]s, go 21/9/0, and have a fully stacked [[The Bloodthirster]] and a [[Last Whisper]] for the second calculation. Level 1: ArPen marks: Caitlyn's AD: 59.75 Vayne's armor: 18.7 The calculations: 59.7*(100/(100+18.7-14.4-3.3))*(1.015)= [u]60.5955[/u] Full AD marks: Caitlyn's AD: 68.3 Vayne's armor (again): 18.7 The calculations: 68.3*(100/(100+(18.7-6)*.9))*(1.015)= [u]62.2132[/u] LATE-GAME: ArPen marks: Caitlyn's AD: 250.75 Vayne's Armor: 76.5 The calculations: 250.75*(100/(100+(76.5-6-14.4)*.9*.6))*(1.015)= [u]195.3361[/u] AD marks: Caitlyn's AD: 259.3 Vayne's armor (again): The calculations: 259.3*(100/(100+(76.5-6)*.9*.6))*(1.015)= [u]190.6203[/u] WITH ARMOR SEALS @ level 1 (which are becoming popular): ArPen marks: Caitlyn's AD: 59.75 Vayne's armor: 31.39 The calculations: 59.75*(100/(100+(31.39-14.4-6)*.9))*(1.015)= [u]55.1875[/u] AD marks: Caitlyn's AD: 68.3 Vayne's armor (again): 31.39 The calculations: 68.3*(100/100+(31.39-6)*.9))*(1.015)= [u]56.4297[/u] As you can see, you might gain 2 damage (though 1 damage is more likely) AT LEVEL 1, you will then deal less damage from then on and throughout mid-game and even until late-game. If a [[Doran's Blade]] is taken then you will do less damage with the AD marks than with the ArPen marks. The numbers may be small, however I am mostly correct. [img]http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/you_lose.gif[/img][/quote]

[quote=Wintermond]AD Marks+Quints are stronger on champs with scaling abilities. Champs that rely a lot on AA's are better off with a mix.[/quote]

[quote=Phoenix0000ff][quote=Wintermond] AD Marks+Quints are stronger on champs with scaling abilities. Champs that rely a lot on AA's are better off with a mix. [/quote] This is probably a safe assumption Here is the spreadsheet I made for AD marks vs ArP After trying to figure out pwnzors data I figured he was right in the sense that there are points where ArP runes beat out AD with last whisper So I made this chart to see what the trend was, I decided to share [columns] % Reduction 60.10532 61.35415 55.28927 56.85191 49.15081 51.16233 41.05858 43.74437 29.90326 33.66940 13.53968 19.19198 [nextcol][nextcol] 300 300 250 250 200 200 150 150 100 100 50 50 ^Armor [nextcol] 100 39.89 41.93 44.71 46.82 50.85 52.99 58.94 61.04 70.10 71.97 86.46 87.68 [nextcol][nextcol] 150 59.84 61.25 67.06 68.38 76.27 77.41 88.41 89.17 105.15 105.13 129.69 128.08 [nextcol][nextcol] 200 79.79 80.58 89.42 89.96 101.70 101.83 117.88 117.29 140.19 138.30 172.92 168.48 [nextcol][nextcol] 250 99.74 99.90 111.78 111.54 127.12 126.25 147.35 145.42 175.24 171.46 216.15 208.89 [nextcol][nextcol] 300 <--- Damage 119.68 119.22 134.13 133.11 152.55 150.66 176.82 173.55 210.29 204.63 259.38 249.29 [/columns] This time I done it with 15 ArP marks instead of 13, I got the 13 number mixed up with armor As far as a conclusion I dunno Late Game ArP seems to preform better against lower armor with higher damage AD preforms better against higher armor with higher damage The game tends to round things off to whole numbers though so either is fine. As far as scaling AD goes it might be something we see in the future but I think a lot of players are just taking AD runes at the moment for last hitting regardless if they know the math or not.[/quote]

[quote=Pwnzor1130][quote=Wintermond] AD Marks+Quints are stronger on champs with scaling abilities. Champs that rely a lot on AA's are better off with a mix. [/quote] The problem with assuming that high ratios = better damage with AD marks is that you are not looking at BASE damage. Abilities with a high BASE damage typically benefit more from ArPen marks than AD marks. This is the EXACT reason that Caitlyn's ultimate actually does MORE damage with ArPen marks. In order for AD marks to be efficient the ability would have to have a high ratio and relatively low base damage or deal magic damage.[/quote]

[quote=sakil7395]wow I never thought I'd get these amount of responses thanks guys nice to see everybody contributing.[/quote]