ziggs is NOT op

[quote=caucheka]for this thread i'm going to assume everyone has a nice 600 ap at level 18. this doesnt take into account an enemies mr, which is why im not going to calculate in karthus or xerath, anyone who has inborn mpen/reduction. [h2]Ziggs[/h2] passive: 349 damage, 12 second cdr (reduced by 4 seconds for casting spell, not affected by cdr) q: 645 on a 4 second cd. w: 420 damage on a 18 second cd, mostly used for knockback, and as an escaping tool. e: 320 damage for first mine, 160 damage for every other mine. if for some reason the same target hits each mine they take 1920 damage. has a 16 second cd and each mine hit slows by 40%. r: 1040 damage in the center, 780 damage for other enemies hit. 90 second cd, huge radius and range. maximum damage from all skills: 4374 damage. outside of this he really just has his q and passive damage wise, w should be used for its cc and while his e has the potential to deal a lot of damage, only a minion/monster or a retarded enemy will hit all of them. [h2]Brand[/h2] passive: 8% of enemies maximum health, 2% per second for 4 seconds every time an enemy is hit by his spells. q: 630 damage, 6 second cd. is easier to hit than ziggs q and has the possibility to stun. w: 615 damage, 10 second cd. if an enemy is affected by his passive they instead take 769 damage. e: 540 damage, 8 second cd. if the target is affected by his passive then the damage spreads in an aoe. r: 650 damage per bounce, can hit the same target 3 times for 1950 damage. 75 second cd. maximum damage potential: 3735, along with probably 5-6 seconds of his passive, dealing 10% or 12% of the targets maximum health. brands cds are also short enough that he can get 2 es and nearly 2 ws in the time it takes ziggs to get 1 of those off. [h2]Malzahar[/h2] passive: ouch this is a tough one. voidlings deal 110 damage each time they attack for the first 7 seconds, then 165 damage for the other 14 seconds. very hard to calculate this shit considering voidlings attack speed as well. q: deals 780 damage (490 damage twice) on a 9 second cd and silences for 3 seconds. w: deals 14% of targets max health each second for 5 seconds, as long as they stand in pool. 14 second cd. e: 800 total damage, 100 damage per half second for 4 seconds. 7 second cd. r: 1330 total damage, 266 damage per half second for 2.5 seconds. suppresses target as well, 80 second cd. maximum damage potential: 2880, plus at least 3 seconds of w for 42% of targets max health, plus 14% for each extra second they stand (considering dropping the pool then supress ontop). this also doesnt count his voidling.. which as mentioned is hard to calculate it all but its going to hit a few times, so add maybe 500 damage for that. most of malz damage obviously comes from his pool, which at 600 ap has the potential to deal 70% of someones max health, as long as they stand in the pool for all 5 seconds. [h2]ahri[/h2] passive: spellvamp. so no correlation on damage output. q: 340 magic damage out, 340 true damage in. deals a total of 680 damage on a 7 second cd. w: 388 damage per fire, 776 damage if all 3 hits the same target. 5 second cd. e: 390 damage, 2 second taunt. 12 second cd. r: 360 damage to 3 targets each dash, max damage is 1080 to same target. 70 second cd. maximum damage potential: 2926 damage to one target. however ahri as a champion is built more on dishing out damage to a lot of targets. if she hit 3 targets with all spells (but e), she would deal 6834 damage. [h2]analysis[/h2] Ziggs as a champion is supposed to hit like a truck with his ult and q, because his w and e aren't meant for dealing damage. w is meant for cc/escape while e is meant for area control. in fact, originally his w wasnt even going to do damage, according to meddler, the rioter who mainly developed him. his ultimate also has the largest cooldown out of the champions that i compared him to. ziggs is also the newest champion, hes been out for one day. people will learn how to counter him effectively. but while he has no known counter, he's going to look op in the hands of a skilled player. why do i even bother, everyone is going to consider him op still in 4 weeks if riot doesnt nerf him.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]Lol. This is a lot of work for something that people won't read like, at all. To be fair, You can't compare Ziggs to any other champion as he has a very distinct role. That's Area control. No other "mage" does that as well as he does except [i]maybe[/i] Orianna. I'd love to talk more on this but I have to go and I'll say more once I can.[/quote]

[quote=Dainou]This and I think you should add in Gragas, cause both function on heavy hitting Q and Ulti. With the rest just there as utility with a little bit of damage. Also Gragas ulti hits close to Ziggs, full damage in the whole aoe and it's pretty big, it also got a huge knock back and lower cd. So I think if you should compare Ziggs damage with other mages, Gragas has to be on the list. Anyway good job, wanted to do one of this my self. However I'm afraid that all those that say Ziggs is OP wont read it. I think you should post this on the official forums as well, to get people to realize this. But hey, no matter what we do, I think riot will listen to the ones that QQ and then buff him up when he is to bad to be worth picking.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark]I didn't think Ziggs was OP. Until I saw him take down a full health Xin Zhao in under 2 seconds. That changed my mind.[/quote]

[quote=Wintermond]Ziggs is an ap carry. He deals damage. Deal with it.[/quote]

[quote=Dainou][quote=Vapora Dark] I didn't think Ziggs was OP. Until I saw him take down a full health Xin Zhao in under 2 seconds. That changed my mind. [/quote] Eh....this is hopeless, but gonna try anyway.... 1. What lv was Ziggs? 2. Lv of Xin? 3. Xin item? 4. Ziggs item? 5. He is a burst mage..... Done the same with Gragas and Xerath, Brand would if there is minion that ulti bounce on, Cass would just do it a few sec later......Dont really see the point. Cause he is not much different from Gragas if you look at it. Only reason he wins damage war with Gragas is 50 more base damade on ulti, lower cd on Q but less damage with lower scale and damage on E. W is just 10 or 5 base damage lower then Gragas E.[/quote]

[quote=Dypheus][quote=Dainou] [quote=Vapora Dark] I didn't think Ziggs was OP. Until I saw him take down a full health Xin Zhao in under 2 seconds. That changed my mind. [/quote] Eh....this is hopeless, but gonna try anyway.... 1. What lv was Ziggs? 2. Lv of Xin? 3. Xin item? 4. Ziggs item? 5. He is a burst mage..... Done the same with Gragas and Xerath, Brand would if there is minion that ulti bounce on, Cass would just do it a few sec later......Dont really see the point. Cause he is not much different from Gragas if you look at it. Only reason he wins damage war with Gragas is 50 more base damade on ulti, lower cd on Q but less damage with lower scale and damage on E. W is just 10 or 5 base damage lower then Gragas E. [/quote] You also calculated t Gragas damage reduction skill or something? I Could be wrong to lazy to check it.[/quote]

[quote=caucheka]you're right i should of noted gragas. but the problem is gragas is more of a tanky ap than a full up mage. his kit (passive/w) supports being beefy while ziggs doesnt.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]I think that the thing people are annoyed by is his Q harass and the massive range on his R, not his damage.[/quote]

[quote=example1013]Gragas can do like 2000 dmg with 2 spells in less than a second, even when built as tanky AP. Balanced.[/quote]