Satella wrote:
Damn it's hard to hold a convo with two people without confusing everybody, I should start quoting the posts I reply to in the future. My apologies.
Yep you should but that's no problem. In real life it's often no different amirite?
Lane phase is extremely crucial to Riven. And AD marks benefit lane phase more than ArPen marks. That's why people tend to get AD marks.
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I think on Riven AD marks and AD quints are better.
I have already ceded that AD is in my opinion superior.
That being said, end game your damage will be better with ARP reds and quints -once a % pen item is completed- and this is a claim that will not be ceded and I am far too lazy to do the math to support it.
I am confident that if the math is done (Which could take a few hours because it would need to be comprehensive) that it will remain true.
I still maintain that AD is the best on Riven because of the power you're getting out of it early, and Riven is the special case where her scaling will come through too late (With completed items like BT and whatnot) that it starts to feel like taking % HP quints or HP per level yellows.
The point being made in the above example is that yes, it -will- be better late game to have the ARP reds and Riven is not an exception to this rule no matter how poor her base damages are and no matter how good the scaling is on her abilities. However that is not always worth the sacrifice made early - This is why top laners run armor yellows and not % hp quints. They want their power upfront.
So for Riven get your power upfront. Her kit and scalings are unique, but her passive is what really tips the scale in favor of AD reds and quints. You'll have to remember to auto attack to use it :]
I have already ceded that AD is in my opinion superior.
That being said, end game your damage will be better with ARP reds and quints -once a % pen item is completed- and this is a claim that will not be ceded and I am far too lazy to do the math to support it.
I am confident that if the math is done (Which could take a few hours because it would need to be comprehensive) that it will remain true.
I still maintain that AD is the best on Riven because of the power you're getting out of it early, and Riven is the special case where her scaling will come through too late (With completed items like BT and whatnot) that it starts to feel like taking % HP quints or HP per level yellows.
The point being made in the above example is that yes, it -will- be better late game to have the ARP reds and Riven is not an exception to this rule no matter how poor her base damages are and no matter how good the scaling is on her abilities. However that is not always worth the sacrifice made early - This is why top laners run armor yellows and not % hp quints. They want their power upfront.
So for Riven get your power upfront. Her kit and scalings are unique, but her passive is what really tips the scale in favor of AD reds and quints. You'll have to remember to auto attack to use it :]
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Riven wants to snowball like crazy out of her really early levels. AD is better than ArPen at very early levels. This is why AD runes tend to be used on Riven over ArPen runes, even though ArPen is still a great stat on her and does perform better if the game lasts long enough.
Satella's idea that high AD scalings devalue ArPen is patently incorrect. High AD scalings increase the value of AD. But high physical damage increases the value of ArPen. Good AD scalings will tend to mean more damage, which will tend to increase the value of ArPen. The reason for this, simply, is that penetration is a multiplicative stat. The more damage you do, the more valuable penetration becomes. There is no such thing as an AD scaling so high that ArPen is never worthwhile.
I do plan on dropping some hardcore math on this, since it doesn't look, on the surface, to be too hard, actually. Just a bit complicated.
Satella's idea that high AD scalings devalue ArPen is patently incorrect. High AD scalings increase the value of AD. But high physical damage increases the value of ArPen. Good AD scalings will tend to mean more damage, which will tend to increase the value of ArPen. The reason for this, simply, is that penetration is a multiplicative stat. The more damage you do, the more valuable penetration becomes. There is no such thing as an AD scaling so high that ArPen is never worthwhile.
I do plan on dropping some hardcore math on this, since it doesn't look, on the surface, to be too hard, actually. Just a bit complicated.
OTGBionicArm wrote: Armored wimminz = badass.
My posts may be long. If this bothers you, don't read them.
My posts may be long. If this bothers you, don't read them.
lifebaka wrote:
There is no such thing as an AD scaling so high that ArPen is never worthwhile.
So if I had a skill that did 1000000000000% bonus AD as damage, you would still take Armor Penetration runes?
I don't have any experience with Riven, but what I do understand is penetration. Flat is best against enemies that have little to no bonus armor. If your trying to take down a carry during lategame simple percentage penetration is wasted against their no defensive stats.
That being said, Riven seems like a special case.
The real argument in this thread is Satella's hostility against Arp in general. Its probably a misunderstanding, but you seem to be cheering AD over Arp in general. That is how I see it anyway.
Riven has like 1050% bonus AD scaling on her combo. There is absolutely no reason to use armor penetration runes.
This quote specifically goes a bit far saying there is absolutely no reason for Arp.
That being said, Riven seems like a special case.
The real argument in this thread is Satella's hostility against Arp in general. Its probably a misunderstanding, but you seem to be cheering AD over Arp in general. That is how I see it anyway.
Satella wrote:
Riven has like 1050% bonus AD scaling on her combo. There is absolutely no reason to use armor penetration runes.This quote specifically goes a bit far saying there is absolutely no reason for Arp.
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Armor Penetration is a good stat. However, many champions benefit from taking AD early game to give them a stronger laning phase, since you can only have so much bonus AD early game. Obviously ArPen outscales flat AD once you buy a bloodthirster or IE, but taking AD runes will allow some champions to get substantially better farming and better early game vs. Champion damage, allowing them to grab their big items sooner and be a larger influence on objectives and teamfights.
The bigger your AD scalings are and the lower your base damage is, the less compelling Armor Penetration looks.
The bigger your AD scalings are and the lower your base damage is, the less compelling Armor Penetration looks.
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