Doran's Ring start on ADC Tristana

[quote=Youngs][quote=tehAsian] Blue Ezreal. Muramana proc, BoRK, Iceborn, Lizard Elder does not scale off bonus AD but instead penetration. Your argument is flawed. [/quote] Are you sure that you know what my arguement is? Like I said I'm not trying to make a case for armor reds on [[TRISTANA]]. My point is that 10 less AD isn't going to make CS'ing under tower terrible, and that if people can run armor pen reds then it shouldn't be the end of the world. The fact that it's blue ezreal makes it even more relevant. [[EZREAL]] has no waveclears until level 6. [quote=tehAsian] They have sustain and last hitting capability at tower, you have one or the other, or sometimes even neither. [/quote] Your argument relies on [[TRISTANA]] not being able to last hit under tower if she runs life steal quints and a [[DORAN'S RING]]. In this case doing the math is very important. Your turret has 152 base AD and gains 4 AD at 0:25 and every minute after. I made a program in pascal that determines how many hits it will take for [[TRISTANA]] to kill a melee minion or caster minion, given an ingame time. It tests it for levels 2-6, and personally I think the results of this program is the best way to determine if having [[DORAN'S BLADE]] makes a difference in your CS without any further question. Anecdotal experience can be debated endlessly, but you can't argue with a computer. It's much better to use a large scale test than us constantly repeating that [[DORAN'S RING]] does or doesn't affect last hitting under turret. This program factors in the masteries [[DEADLINESS]], [[HAVOC]], and [[BRUTE FORCE]]. It also assumes that minion health increases starting at 4:00, because it takes a minute for the stronger minions to go from the enemy nexus to your outer turret. Melee minions are hit by tower twice and caster minions are hit by tower once. My friend has a compiler for Windows 32 Bit so I'll post a Windows 32 Bit version later. [center][url=http://www.mediafire.com/download/g2c252vrgukpm1r/TristanaLastHit.exe]Here it is for Windows 64 Bit.[/url][/center] Here's the source code incase you're among the few that use pascal: [spoiler=Source Code] PROGRAM TristanaLastHit ; USES Crt ; VAR level, meleeminionhealth, casterminionhealth, miniontype, minutes2, seconds2, counter, num, yolo : INTEGER ; time, minutes, seconds : STRING ; ADring, ADblade,turretAD, ringhitsmelee,bladehitsmelee, ringhitscaster, bladehitscaster, roundedvalue : REAL ; BEGIN WRITELN ('What time is it ingame? Seperate minutes and seconds with a '':''') ; READLN (time) ; counter:=1 ; REPEAT If time[counter] <> ':' THEN minutes := CONCAT(minutes, time[counter]) ; counter := counter + 1 ; UNTIL time[counter] = ':' ; VAL(minutes, minutes2, yolo) ; counter := counter + 1 ; REPEAT If time[counter] <> ':' THEN seconds := CONCAT(seconds, time[counter]) ; counter := counter + 1 ; UNTIL counter = LENGTH(time) + 1; VAL(seconds, seconds2, yolo) ; WRITELN ('The time ingame is ', minutes2,' minutes and ',seconds2,' seconds.') ; turretAD := 152 + 4*minutes2 ; IF seconds2 >= 25 THEN turretAD := turretAD + 4 ; casterminionhealth := 280 + 15*((minutes2-1)DIV 3) ; {minutes2 is subtracted by 1 because it takes a minute for the buffed minions to reach your outer turret} meleeminionhealth := 445 + 20*((minutes2-1)DIV 3) ; WRITELN ('This means that turrets have ', turretAD:0:2, ' AD, melee minions have ', meleeminionhealth, ' health, and caster minions have ', casterminionhealth, ' health.') ; FOR level := 2 TO 6 DO BEGIN ADring := 1.02 * (46.5 + (3*level) + (0.67*level) + 3 + 8.55) ; {This factors in masteries and AD reds} ADblade := 1.02 * (46.5 + (3*level) + (0.67*level) + 3 + 8.55 + 10) ; ringhitsmelee := (meleeminionhealth-(turretAD*2))/ADring ; bladehitsmelee := (meleeminionhealth-(turretAD*2))/ADblade ; ringhitscaster := (casterminionhealth-(turretAD))/ADring ; bladehitscaster := (casterminionhealth-(turretAD))/ADblade ; IF round(ringhitsmelee) = trunc(ringhitsmelee) THEN roundedvalue := round(ringhitsmelee) + 1 ELSE roundedvalue := round(ringhitsmelee) ; WRITELN ('To kill a melee minion under turret with a Doran''s Ring at level ', level, ' it takes ',roundedvalue:0:0,' (', ringhitsmelee:0:2, ') hits.') ; IF round(bladehitsmelee) = trunc(bladehitsmelee) THEN roundedvalue := round(bladehitsmelee) + 1 ELSE roundedvalue := round(bladehitsmelee) ; WRITELN ('To kill a melee minion under turret with a Doran''s Blade at level ', level, ' it takes ',roundedvalue:0:0,' (', bladehitsmelee:0:2, ') hits.') ; IF round(ringhitscaster) = trunc(ringhitscaster) THEN roundedvalue := round(ringhitscaster) + 1 ELSE roundedvalue := round(ringhitscaster) ; WRITELN ('To kill a caster minion under turret with a Doran''s Ring at level ', level, ' it takes ',roundedvalue:0:0,' (', ringhitscaster:0:2, ') hits.') ; IF round(bladehitscaster) = trunc(bladehitscaster) THEN roundedvalue := round(bladehitscaster) + 1 ELSE roundedvalue := round(bladehitscaster) ; WRITELN ('To kill a caster minion under turret with a Doran''s Blade at level ', level, ' it takes ',roundedvalue:0:0,' (', bladehitscaster:0:2, ') hits.') ; WRITELN () ; END; WRITELN ('Made by Youngs on MobaFire.') ; READKEY ; END . [/spoiler] And some screenshots of the program incase you don't feel like downloading. [spoiler=Screenshots] [img]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2836/9264168231_aecf01cd0e_o.png[/img] [img]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3825/9266942764_a895b91001_o.png[/img] [/spoiler] So this should probably end the discussion about how [[DORAN'S RING]] affects your last hitting on turret. If you can find a particular time in game where it takes less attacks with a [[DORAN'S BLADE]] at a level that corresponds with the time in game please tell me what the time is, or if I made a mistake with my math or programming. Otherwise, I'm going to say that [[DORAN'S RING]] will [i]not[/i] make you lose CS to your turret. Because of this, you indeed [b]can[/b] have both the capability to last hit under tower and life steal quints. In this case, what it comes down to is whether or not you can autoattack harass twice while [[EXPLOSIVE SHOT]] is on cooldown, without taking damage. In my [u]opinion[/u], trading seems a lot better when you can use [[EXPLOSIVE SHOT]] and run away. [[EXPLOSIVE SHOT]]'s range is the same as your autoattack and it's cast time is also similiar to the time it takes to AA. It just seems unlikely to me that you'll be able to autoattack 3 times in the same 16 seconds without missing any CS, especially if pushing bot lane enough to prevent it from getting to your tower is important.[/quote]

[quote=tehAsian]I just tried it in a custom. Items: [[doran's ring]] + 2 [[health potion]]s Masteries: 21/9/0 Runes: 8x AD Marks, 1x crit mark, LS Quints Takes 1 auto to last hit melee minions, not enough AD to last hit cannon minions, 2 autos to last hit ranged minions unless damaged beforehand. Caster minions had enough health that 1 extra AD Mark would not have made a difference. So did Cannon minions. I know for a fact that with a Dorans Blade you can last hit all minions with just 1 auto-attack through experience. [quote]My point is that 10 less AD isn't going to make CS'ing under tower terrible[/quote] And your point has just been proven wrong. This doesn't take a whole program to test out. Just simply go into a custom game against a bot and have it push against you, and you'll see the difference between +9 and +19 AD. Plus, I'd rather trust something that was [b]actually playtested for reals[/b] instead of a mathematical formula program that didn't run League and practice last hitting at tower. It doesn't matter how exact your numbers are, what actually happens is what matters. [quote]Anecdotal experience can be debated endlessly, but you can't argue with a computer. [/quote] Are you serious? Minions don't change health every game, they scale exactly the same and tower damage scales exactly the same. It's not that I can't argue with a computer, it's the computer that can't argue with actual experience that's proven millions of times each day. After all, who is playing the game? Your computer program or us? Who actually experiences last hitting, the computer or us? Did your program also count that there are two other enemies in lane, who can zone you from minions? How about a support, who can attempt to help you last hit and fail/succeed? [quote]In this case, what it comes down to is whether or not you can autoattack harass twice while Explosive Shot is on cooldown, without taking damage. In my opinion, trading seems a lot better when you can use Explosive Shot and run away. Explosive Shot's range is the same as your autoattack and it's cast time is also similiar to the time it takes to AA. It just seems unlikely to me that you'll be able to autoattack 3 times in the same 16 seconds without missing any CS, especially if pushing bot lane enough to prevent it from getting to your tower is important.[/quote] It seems unlikely? Judging from how you [b]used a program and math[/b] to try to stimulate a lane phase, it doesn't even seem like you tried. 3 auto-attacks for harass in 16 seconds is EASY. Have you even played a trade-intensive lane, [[poppy]] vs [[rengar]], [[jax]] vs [[olaf]], etc? Don't say "oh, they're melee, so they HAVE to trade often", because I know for a fact that having a bigger range against someone with bigger range means MORE opportunities to trade, not less. tl; dr Stop relying on math and computers. One last thing: [quote] If you can find a particular time in game where it takes less attacks with a Doran's Blade at a level that corresponds with the time in game please tell me what the time is, or if I made a mistake with my math or programming.[/quote] 2:22 minutes in, level 2, start with Ring, attempt to last hit full health caster minions at tower with a single auto-attack. Tell me if you succeed.[/quote]

[quote=utopus]@Youngs +rep for the hard work. It seems that MOBA users are getting apathetic to the amount of work some people do. I personally disagree with your reasoning - thats just my personal opinion, but i digress. You did spend a significant amount of time writing this source code though, and that deserves to be rewarded. One thing that would (imo) significantly change the results would be to include the [[sunder]] mastery. Melee minions and caster minions gain armor & MR every so often, and i imagine that having that ARpen can give the Doran's blade start on tristana a bigger edge over Doran's ring. Thoughts?[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]Very few champions can go ArmorPen reds imo. I legitimately think only [[Ezreal]], [[Caitlyn]], and [[Draven]] have enough early game damage to run them (maybe [[Graves]] too). Even some of those champions might be benefitted by flat AD more anyway. I don't have the exact math but ArmorPen don't become more effective than flat AD until level 7~ i believe, not sure. And yes, Armor Pen runes are the late game alternative, which is why I'm wondering why you're taking them on [[Tristana]]. Trist already has probably the best late game in the entire game. Why not have your runes supplement your early game to get to that point? This has always been my motto, you can build what you need in game, but have your runes be a crutch to your early game. Onwards to [[Doran's Ring]], I still don't get how it's better than [[Doran's Blade]](probably because it's not). Dorans Blade gives 20 more hp, health per hit, and 10 more AD. As opposed to Ring giving 15 more ap and mana regen. Even just describing it to you, you should be able to see how much more a benefit [[Doran's Blade]]. I haven't tried it, but in practice I would suspect you would need to constantly plug-in an [[Explosive Shot]] pretty much on cooldown to make it worth it. Additionally, if you were to start Armor Pen Reds and [[Doran's Ring]]; Tristanas base AD is 46.5 on top of 3.5 that you could get from masteries. So you would start with 50 AD. Compare that to other AD's that will probably have between 18-23 more AD than you. Are you going to tell me that [[Doran's Ring]] can make up that difference? Not a chance. To further put this into context for you, half the supports you would be running would start with more AD just baseline, not even masteries or runes, including: [[Alistar]], [[Blitzcrank]], [[Leona]], [[Taric]]. [[Karma]] and [[Zyra]] would have equal base AD. [[Janna]], [[Nami]] and [[Soraka]] would be just shy of you (1 AD less). And [[lulu]] would probably end up dealing more per auto with pix. I don't really care how much math you throw at me or whatever wonky explanation you have, practically speaking it's not going to work in game unless you vastly outskill your opponent, but in that case you would probably win with [[Doran's Blade]] and/or Flat AD runes anyway. Take it or leave it if you wish[/quote]

[quote=Youngs][quote=Mooninites] Very few champions can go ArmorPen reds imo. I legitimately think only [[Ezreal]], [[Caitlyn]], and [[Draven]] have enough early game damage to run them (maybe [[Graves]] too). [/quote] I've been trying to clarify this for a while but I should just put it bluntly in a separate post instead of in the middle of a lot of text people probably won't read. [u]I don't think armor pen reds are the better option on [[TRISTANA]].[/u] I'll have another post later about everything else though. It's very late where I live.[/quote]

[quote=Thalia Kael]You rely on harassing with explosive shot so much but it gets completely shut down by Janna, Lulu, Lux, Karma, Thresh, Morg and Orianna, and puts you into range of the hard cc of a ton of other supports Good job on doing that program though[/quote]

[quote=Youngs]I'm going to get the most important thing out of the way: Which item is better for harassing in lane? [quote=tehAsian] 3 auto-attacks for harass in 16 seconds is EASY. Have you even played a trade-intensive lane, [[poppy]] vs [[rengar]], [[jax]] vs [[olaf]], etc? Don't say "oh, they're melee, so they HAVE to trade often", because I know for a fact that having a bigger range against someone with bigger range means MORE opportunities to trade, not less. [/quote] Yes, you can trade twice during those 16 seconds. Easy, indeed. But the quality of these trades matter more than the quantity. Here are two facts about these 16 seconds: [list] [*] You will have nothing to trade with except your autoattacks. [*] Every AD Carry in the game has something to trade with that has a shorter cooldown than 16 seconds. [[PILTOVER PEACEMAKER]], [[BUCKSHOT]], [[VOID OOZE]], [[VOLLEY]], [[SPINNING AXE]], [[PHOSPHORUS BOMB]], [[VENOM CASK]] and [[EXPUNGE]], [[BOOMERANG BLADE]] and [[RICOCHET]], [[PIERCING ARROW]], [[MYSTIC SHOT]] and [[ESSENCE FLUX]], [[TUMBLE]], [[DOUBLE UP]], and [[VAULT]]. [/list] During these 16 seconds your lane opponent will have these get their abilities back up, while you only have an autoattack. If you trade during this time it's bound to be a bad trade, even if you have a [[DORAN'S BLADE]] buffing your autoattack. [i]Can[/i] you trade during the 16 seconds? [color=#00ff00]Yes.[/color] Is it a good idea? [color=#ff0000]No.[/color] [[JAX]], [[RENGAR]], [[POPPY]], and [[OLAF]] are all champions with much shorter cooldowns. They don't trade frequently because they're melee, they trade frequently because there's a correlation between having short cooldowns and wanting to trade. Ok, now here's some stuff about how [[DORAN'S BLADE]] affects your last hitting. [quote=tehAsian] Takes 1 auto to last hit melee minions, not enough AD to last hit cannon minions, 2 autos to last hit ranged minions unless damaged beforehand. Caster minions had enough health that 1 extra AD Mark would not have made a difference. So did Cannon minions. I know for a fact that with a Dorans Blade you can last hit all minions with just 1 auto-attack through experience. [/quote] 10 AD shouldn't make a difference vs. a siege minion. If a siege minion has 700 health and a turret has 162 AD, 700 mod 162 = 52. [[TRISTANA]] can do 52 damage easily. Siege minions take a very long time to die to a turret, so either way you're going to have plenty of time to get them at the optimal health to last-hit them at. As for caster minions, I did what you did and went into custom games and fought caster minions at 2:22. To accurately compare the two items however, I went into the custom game with a [[DORAN'S BLADE]]. I was not able to kill a caster minion in one hit under tower, so just as my math had predicted, there's no difference. [quote=tehAsian] I'd rather trust something that was [b]actually playtested for reals[/b] instead of a mathematical formula program that didn't run League and practice last hitting at tower. It doesn't matter how exact your numbers are, what actually happens is what matters. [/quote] Ofcourse it makes sense to buy the item that millions of people run every day, but you've forgotten that we're on the theorycrafting forum. The point is to find a viable option that millions of people [i]aren't[/i] running everyday. The word "theory" is very important right now. This means that ideas are based on reasoning and speculation (in this case math generated from a program) rather than experimentation. This is why my program is super relevant. It's not supposed to simulate laning phase, nor is it supposed to determine which is the better item. The purpose of it is to do the math for every combination of [[TRISTANA]]'s level, Starting Item, and in-game time. This way I could have the math done without taking too much time out of my day. Keeping this in mind, the .exe file is better referred to as "plain old math". You're also forgetting that when [[DORAN'S BLADE]] is bought millions of times it doesn't say anything about the viability of [[DORAN'S RING]]. There was a time when millions of [[EZREAL]]s did [i]not[/i] buy [[ICEBORN GAUNTLET]] and [[MURAMANA]]. Do you know what persuaded the pros to start running blue build? You guessed it. Objective reasoning and speculation. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mv2YLhMTZ0]And in particular, plain math.[/url] If it comes down to you insisting that [[DORAN'S BLADE]] is necessary for last hitting vs. me claiming that I have no problem CS'ing with a [[DORAN'S RING]] then ofcourse math will be a suitable tie-breaker, especially for a game that is heavily relies on math. You have an interesting point that there [i]could[/i] be a difference when it comes to being zoned out of CS. It makes some sense to say that if you can kill a minion at 70 health with [[DORAN'S RING]] and 80 health with [[DORAN'S BLADE]], if the enemy laners decide to start to zone at just the right time they will catch you in the time it takes for the minion's health to go from 80 to 70, potentially taking advantage of your [[DORAN'S RING]] start. This does not factor in the 4 extra damage you get from ring on [[EXPLOSIVE SHOT]] from [[DORAN'S RING]]. It would already be very clutch to abuse a [[DORAN'S RING]] start by zoning in that period of time. You only need to proc two [[EXPLOSIVE SHOT]] passives to reduce the gap to 2 health. I don't think there's anyone in the world who is that clutch. Even if no [[EXPLOSIVE SHOT]]s are proc'ed, the gap would be 10 health. To put that into context, one shot from a caster minion does 23 damage and 12 damage for a melee minion. The one about the support trying to help you last was also interesting. I understand when a support, who probably have less AD than [[TRISTANA]], autoattacks a minion their autoattack does not necessarily apply to the math that the program did. But if a support is trying to help you last hit under tower, that means the minion takes 2 hits to kill under tower. Whenever it takes two hits to kill a minion under tower you're overkilling by a significant amount. The overkill that you normally do will compensate for the support's lack of AD. @utopus Thanks for the rep. With [[SUNDER]] it's going to take 9 minutes for a melee minion to have one point of armor and 15 minutes for a caster minions, so the armor of melee and caster minions are pretty much negligible. If they do have some armor though, damage reduction from armor is multiplicative, so by a very very slight amount it hurts people with high AD more than people with low AD.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]You can't base your entire argument around trading while completely ignoring the passive healing on Blade.[/quote]

[quote=Youngs]I did address that though. [quote=Youngs] Also, you can't be 100% sure which item is better for sustain. If you're at full health [[DORAN'S BLADE]] won't do anything for you. So at the start of the game where you're at full health and possibly being healed by a support your autoattacks don't count as part of the 60 you need. Infact if you want to survive the first two minutes vs [[DRAVEN]] than [[HEALTH POTION]]s are the way to go, because it will take more than two minutes to reach the full amount of sustain from [[DORAN'S BLADE]]. [/quote][/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]You're rarely at full health in lane though. If you're maintaining full health you're either winning the lane so hard that they won't even come close or it's the most passive farm lane in history. Even if your opponents don't hit you themselves you're bound to tank minion aggro. Also just out of curiosity, what DO you plan to do during the 16 seconds of E cooldown? Good players aren't generally just going to let you just cs freely with no pressure for 16 seconds. You either back off completely and miss cs or you hit them back.[/quote]