Police Violence

[quote=Latest Legend]Why? They're working fine as long as the law says they're working fine. That's just how it works. If those officers broke these laws, the judicial system is at fault for not judging them properly. That's not the fault of the police. The ones training the police officers are training the police officers at doing their job. As long as the law doesn't say they're not doing their job, they're doing their job. Oh, shit, we should sell those electric chairs and deadly injections before anyone finds out that we've been breaking a human right. By the way, the fact that the dead penalty exists is because the society wants it. Yes, democracy's crazy isn't it? No, referring to the "problem", if it exists, as something caused by the police is hiding the actual cause of the problem. If you think that the police is allowed to do something that it shouldn't be allowed to, then you should vouch for the laws being changed if it's not against the law, or charge a judge for not representing the law properly if it in fact is against the law. The fact that neither of both happened can mean two things. You could say that there's apparently no problem, or that society fails to see this problem, thus making it a cultural issue. EDIT: As you may have noticed I'm not expressing an opinion about whether I think those shootings were "right" or "legal" or not, because I find it irrelevant to the discussion at hand.[/quote]

[quote=TROLLing1999][quote=Latest Legend]Why? They're working fine as long as the law says they're working fine. That's just how it works.[/quote] Wrong. The point is how well are they enforcing the law? It's not the laws fault that there are illegal gangs neither it's the legal system's job to find them. This the police's task and if they are not enforcing the law properly. [quote=Latest Legend]If those officers broke these laws, the judicial system is at fault for not judging them properly. That's not the fault of the police.[/quote] The judical system is at fault for not judging them. But the point is that these actions should not have occured in the first place. The police's job was to make sure such people do not become cops because they are not suited for the job. With your logic, we should not care about the shootings themselves but only about their trial. This is either incorrect logic or you are absolutely careless about what happened. [quote=Latest Legend]The ones training the police officers are training the police officers at doing their job. As long as the law doesn't say they're not doing their job, they're doing their job.[/quote] Exactly, some of the police officers are not doing their job on the streets. These people should not have passed the training in the first place or at least the evaluation system should have banned them from being cops, when give the chance. [quote=Latest Legend]Oh, shit, we should sell those electric chairs and deadly injections before anyone finds out that we've been breaking a human right. By the way, the fact that the dead penalty exists is because the society wants it. Yes, democracy's crazy isn't it?[/quote] Ok then, if one person or some parts of the community do not respect the most basic human right and deny the constitution, the all should. The death penalty exists only in few states in the U.S., in no E.U. country and in very few parts actually of the developed/western world. And let me quote Michael Bloomberg on this, "To some extent, it's that people are always resistant to change. Leadership is about doing what you think is right(based on the best advice you can get) and then building a constituency behind it. It's not about making a poll and follow from the back.[...]That's not ethical, or right and it is not your obligation". He was referring to his obesity policy in New York but I think you grasped the point. The authority has the power in its hands to do away with death penalty. Otherwise Guantanamo will exist forever and that's definately not something the society wants. What I am trying to say is that it's not only the legal/not legal and should be jugded/not judged part of the story. The incidents shouldn't have happened in the first place and unless there are some reforms both in the law and the police system, similar things are going to happen again.[/quote]

[quote=Latest Legend][quote=TROLLing1999] Wrong. The point is how well are they enforcing the law? It's not the laws fault that there are illegal gangs neither it's the legal system's job to find them. This the police's task and if they are not enforcing the law properly.[/quote]No, you said that those officers had committed a crime by shooting those people. But they weren't, in the eyes of the law. I agree with the rest of what you say, but it's irrelevant to the case at hand, it does not prove your point. [quote=TROLLing1999]Exactly, some of the police officers are not doing their job on the streets. These people should not have passed the training in the first place or at least the evaluation system should have banned them from being cops, when give the chance.[/quote]Once again, law has spoken, those officers did not commit a crime. They did their job. And once again I agree with the rest but it's irrelevant to the discussion and does not prove your point in any way. [quote=TROLLing1999]Ok then, if one person or some parts of the community do not respect the most basic human right and deny the constitution, the all should. The death penalty exists only in few states in the U.S., in no E.U. country and in very few parts actually of the developed/western world. And let me quote Michael Bloomberg on this, "To some extent, it's that people are always resistant to change. Leadership is about doing what you think is right(based on the best advice you can get) and then building a constituency behind it. It's not about making a poll and follow from the back.[...]That's not ethical, or right and it is not your obligation". He was referring to his obesity policy in New York but I think you grasped the point. The authority has the power in its hands to do away with death penalty. Otherwise Guantanamo will exist forever and that's definately not something the society wants.[/quote]I called Barack for you, he told me there wasn't an amazing crowd in front of the White House exclaiming that they wanted to drop the death penalty and that Guantanamo Bay should be closed. It's very true that the authority(whatever that may include) has the power to close Guantanamo Bay. They're not doing it. You think they should, so you say "Fuck you authority, close Guantanamo Bay!". Nobody will care. If millions of people are in front of the White House and say "Fuck you authority, close Guantanamo Bay!", there's a high chance that they will. If they won't, someone will say "If you vote for my I'll close Guantanamo Bay!". As long as there aren't masses screaming they want Guantanamo Bay closed, or if some president candidate who says (s)he'll close it doesn't get a lot of votes, society doesn't want it. There are other reasons for this candidate not getting a lot of votes, but I hope we can refrain from going in the absolutely unrelated nitpick discussion here. [quote=TROLLing1999] What I am trying to say is that it's not only the legal/not legal and should be jugded/not judged part of the story. The incidents shouldn't have happened in the first place and unless there are some reforms both in the law and the police system, similar things are going to happen again.[/quote]You think it shouldn't have happened in the first place. Law doesn't. Society doesn't. I also think that this is bound to happen again without reforms. That's not up for discussion though. What you or I think about those shootings being right or wrong isn't up for discussion. What's up for discussion is whether the police force is to blame for this. I say it isn't.[/quote]

[quote=TROLLing1999]You are confusing a couple of things again. The verdict of the trials was not that the actions of those polic men were the best possible or right in any way. The judges just justified the reactions of the cops. There is a difference between those two. There is also a difference between not giving a fuck and agreeing with the police/legal system. Most people belong to the 1st category. You missed my point with Bloomberg's quote but we are already far beside the point and we will not ever agree. In my opinion, each person's perspective is valuable since this is what forms society and democracy.[/quote]

[quote=Latest Legend]If it's justified it's not a crime. Judges aren't allowed to just say "well, the law clearly states that this is very illegal, but we'll let it slide this time". It's not about the police system, it's about whether it's alright to shoot people in these situations. Seeing as how many people actually care, you could say society as a whole doesn't give a fuck, to say it on your words. So society says it's okay. I don't think I understand what we'll never agree on, but I agree with letting it slide. Democracy stems from the idea that everyone's perspective is valuable, that's why it puts all opinions in equal value. If it's your opinion against the opinion of thousands of others, and all opinions have equal value, well... Anyway, I think we've come to the point where we agree that the source of the shootings doesn't lie in the police system, so saying "Fuck the police!" isn't correct in any way. Or would you still want to say something about the matter? I enjoyed the discussion so far by the way, the Bloomberg quote was a nice addition, though I guess I didn't really understand what you meant with it xD[/quote]

[quote=caucheka][quote=TROLLing1999]Sure, media plays a big part on the individual's perception on a subject.[/quote] a bit late on this both the trayvon martin case and the michael brown case got INTERNATIONAL attention yet there have been SEVERAL murders of white people by blacks, in ways that are way worse than taking a few bullets, that have barely even recieved local recognition. you want it to be a race thing, lets talk race, please.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=caucheka]both the trayvon martin case and the michael brown case got INTERNATIONAL attention yet there have been SEVERAL murders of white people by blacks, in ways that are way worse than taking a few bullets, that have barely even recieved local recognition.[/quote] Were the muderers police?[/quote]

[quote=caucheka]no, no one involved were police. i fail to see your point as zimmerman isnt a police officer either.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=caucheka]no, no one involved were police. i fail to see your point as zimmerman isnt a police officer either.[/quote] Then why bring them up? This thread is clearly focused on the police/authoritarian side of things. One of the relevant problems is that there have recently been 3 pretty publicized police murders of black people, two of whom were under 18 if I remember correctly (one 12 year old, that's pretty fucking sick).[/quote]

[quote=caucheka]because you guys sit here and act like police officers are going around looking for any excuse they can find to shoot black people when in most cases [u]they kind of deserve it[/u] for provoking a police officer to defend themselves.[/quote]