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Build Stagnation

Creator: Palthios March 29, 2013 4:36pm
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Palthios
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I dont even know if this is the right place to post this, but its been on my mind for years.

I really dont understand why sites like this exist, if the only builds people accept are what they see on Twitch. I cant even recall how many times Ive seen "This build is wrong because its not whats already been accepted as the right way."

Why have a site that features user created content, if youre just going force other peoples way of thinking upon them? Like they can only feature a build in their guide, if its something that someone has already done and proven to work. Im not talking about the user base as a whole. I make my guides the way I want to make them. I do what works for me and I dont give a **** what anyone thinks about it, who doesnt take the time to try it. If they like it, great. I make my guides to encourage new ideas and help people. If they dont, whatever. And Ive had success here because the people that are willing to try my ideas like them. Im not talking about those people.

Im not talking about the people that come here looking for builds. Which is the whole purpose of this site. Im talking about the people that are actually involved in this community. The people that post on the forum regularly, the scouts, etc. This is probably the least forward thinking community Ive ever seen. It affects me in no way shape or form. If anything if just makes me want to think even further out of the box, just to piss those people off when my guide gets a high rating.

I bring this up because theres people out there, many that Ive spoken to personally, that are afraid to try new things just because of the backlash they could end up receiving. The way this community acts does nothing but inhibit progression and originality.

Again, whats the point of this site, or any like it, if the only builds people are willing to accept are what they see on twitch? You might as well petition riot to lock champions with set build orders, if a place like this cant be used to breed new ideas.
Lugignaf
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Because some things simply are terrible.

If you've actually searched around a bit, you will see that NicknameMy, to use him as an example, constantly posts things that are "optimal and best" when they simply aren't. Most people are pointing that out to him, albeit not in a nice way.

I, personally, have done Jungle Nasus before the most recent buffs to make him actually viable in the role. Sure I got flack for it, but it was fun, and it worked more times than not.

Now when it comes to a "new way of thinking" you have to consider all of the parts of a champion.

AP Udyr, to use another of Nickname's examples, is simply sub-optimal. Sure, there are a lot of defensive options for AP champions in general, such as Rylai's Crystal Scepter and Abyssal Mask, but it doesn't accomplish what Udyr wants of "Get to champion. Stun Champion. Kill champion quickly." because he has to auto attack many times to get Phoenix Stance's fire blasts. Sure he'll live well with Turtle Stance's shield, but it's also on a 3-6 second cooldown. If you want it to be on the 3 second cooldown, you're going to lose durability because you have to dump money in to CDR items.

Long story short, it's for fun. It's not strong.

As for, "People are locked into what they see on streams," I'm going to take a look at Tryndamere. He tricked up from low Elo where he was stomping, into high Elo. He was then nerfed.

Don't always assume that everyone goes for the same thing.
Palthios
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Dont get me started on Nick. Thats not what Im talking about.

Tryn is the perfect example of what Im talking about. The only reason he became popular is because of a streamer. Had that same person posted his AP playstyle here, it would have gotten downvoted into oblivion. Even though it obviously worked to the point where Riot had to nerf his heal.

And it doesnt even have to be huge shifts in playstyles, like building an AD champ AP. Im talking about the most minute details. Like masteries or one single item that differs from the norm. Its gotten pretty ridiculous lately.
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Because people are sheep.

That's the only explanation you need. All they do is follow a leader and never innovate.

But then, as Lugi said, there are things that are flat out stupid.

And Trynd didn't get popular from a streamer, someone found this guy on EU that was playing only AP Trynd, did a Reddit post "How is this possible?" and it went from there.
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I'm talking about when he was still mostly AD actually.

If he had never trickled up to the high Elo, I don't think he would have gotten the rework.

AP Tryn was also posted on Reddit. That guy didn't stream until a lot of people asked him to as well.

EDIT: Point proven by tehasian.


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Yeah I wasnt aware. I dont follow reddit. If I ever look at the site its because my little bro sent me a link. I refuse to support the site and its community which treats someone like Athene the way they do. Not that hes a saint, but hes done more good then any one of those people ever will. That site is just filled with blind hate because people cant see past sarcasm.

Back to the subject, whenever I hear of AP tryn, that streamer is always in the conversation. I had no reason to believe there was anything else that made that playstyle popular.
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Palthios wrote:

Not that hes a saint, but hes done more good then any one of those people ever will.

He's done good to get back in good graces with people, but I digress.

This is a build thread and I think my point has been proved already.
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Palthios
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Lugignaf wrote:


He's done good to get back in good graces with people, but I digress.

This is a build thread and I think my point has been proved already.


What was your point? tehasian was clear. People are sheep. But I dont get where you were going. What I got was, people make some bad builds that dont work so its reasonable to discourage diversity.

Not that I honestly expected anything productive to come from this. I just wonder why the people in question think that way and do the things they do. As if its somehow productive.
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This is because there's an inherent difference from
"OMG NEW OP? AD KARMA SO STRONK" -posts match history-

and

"Does AD Karma work? I've tried it in a few normals and it seems to be working well"

where most "innovative people" try the prior.

People posting on the prior topic will probably just trash the OP because the whole logic behind it is stupid.

People posting on the latter topic, however, will often be engaged in a more civil discussion.
Palthios
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Embracing wrote:

This is because there's an inherent difference from
"OMG NEW OP? AD KARMA SO STRONK" -posts match history-

and

"Does AD Karma work? I've tried it in a few normals and it seems to be working well"

where most "innovative people" try the prior.

People posting on the prior topic will probably just trash the OP because the whole logic behind it is stupid.

People posting on the latter topic, however, will often be engaged in a more civil discussion.


This keeps reverting back to "its the trolls fault". And like I said, Im not talking about that. Bad is bad.

I dont know what to do at this point other then use a recent example. I use 21 utility on junglers. This isnt something I just put together on a whim. I tested the hell out of it in normal games and when it came to try it in a ranked I had great results. I currently have an 80% win rate with xin that I attribute to my playstyle. I dont talk about this in the guide, Im just putting it out there.

In the guide itself, I dont say anything about it being "the only what to go", or "this is the only viable way to build a jungler", "this is op", etc. Theres nothing trolly or obnoxious about my presentation. I provided my reasoning behind it and why it works for me. Thats it. Did I get any intelligent or respectful responses? Some. But I also got "Thats dumb", "Thats not the right choice", etc. And this isnt from random users. This is from scouts and even one member of the site staff. The people that you would expect "more civil discussion" from.

I see this all the time on guides. "you need to change this. Ive never tried it, but its not standard so obviously I cant support this guide." Its ridiculous.

When I talk to people who actually try my guides, the response is 90% positive. But theres people out there who just think they know better without hands on experience. Thats my point. Ive seen so many good ideas get wasted just because people wouldnt try or even think to accept something new unless its done by a pro. And Ive also seen people limit the scope of their theory crafting just because of the reaction they could possibly get. It just blows my mind.
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