Fast Gold Build

[quote=Svingas]I feel like it can be beneficial to both parties involved in the debate as well as anyone on the outside. As we debate, we are forced to continue to refined our arguments for our particular way of playing so that anyone else can then benefit further as they try to work out their own playstyle. I believe that debates like this are extremely beneficial and very rare. But if you want us to stop or if there is a better forum to go about it I would be willing.[/quote]

[quote=Jet]your justification for buying philo stones is that you get harass. well buy fucking heart of gold, dorans shield or something, don't waste 1.6k gold on items you are not going to benefit from and use later in the game. instead of those 2 philo stones, you get a bf sword, which is 250 gold more, 10-12 minions, that helps you harass/counter harass, and that point in the game you can push your lane (about 10-15 minutes in you should be pushing your lane) so makes pushing easier philo stones delays this, and forces you to farm even more before you start getting your main items. it doesn't make it any faster for you, it makes it LONGER. as for saying you gimp the carry by forcing them to be defensive - that's wrong [quote]1600 gold that allows you to stay in lane and farm in definitely while also allowing you to harass your opponent to the point where they have to recall multiple times or play extremely defensively. Either way you are severely gimping the other teams carry. [/quote] If they are farming from the turret, that makes it easier for them to harass you, difficult for you to harass, easier for them to last hit and harder for you to last hit. It also forces you to be in a position where you need to be far from your turret, causing you to blow summoners and deny you experience if you get ganked because you're in a bad position. if you allow them to farm from their turret or in a more beneficial position, this means they can have an easier time avoiding your harass. you can't auto attack under turret and you can easily avoid BB. [quote]If you are good at last hitting like I am. I usually get almost every last hit when I am soloing mid. [/quote] ok then, so why do you need the philo stones? you have range, you're "last hitting" apparently, your lane should be in the middle and you should be safe from harass by constantly moving around behind your minions. there's no justification for philo stones, none, on a carry. when you say last hitting i bet you mean "i push to their turret 24/7 and cry when i get harassed at turret and dont know how to deal with turret damage and the enemy being safe" i seriously believe you think last hitting is pushing, and the entire reason behind philo stones is that you are always at the enemy turret and you keep getting hit by turret or the enemy under their turret, but you're just wording it badly.[/quote]

[quote=Svingas]I have considered possibly buying a doran's item in the place, but the bonus of the philosopher's stones are that you get both mana and health regen. Also of the items that you just listed, I would eventually be selling Doran's shield as well and it would not be gaining gold for me in the meantime. And in regards to Heart of Gold, I am not sure if as sivir you would want to build that into randuin's omen late game or if it would be better to go with last whisper or guardian angel. With the item progression that I have suggested, I am able to purchase a BF sword or in some cases my first [[the bloodthirster]] by 15 minutes so it still works in that aspect. My understanding of last hitting is to run around by your minions and focus on harassing the enemy champions when you see opportunities until you see one of the enemy minions is close to one hit from death and then you start to go towards that minion so you can land the last hit and get the gold. By doing this, I am usually able to keep the minion battle right about mid-lane because even though I am harassing the enemy champion and forcing them to recall or back away from the minions, I am doing very little extra damage to their minion waves so the minions stay fairly evenly matched. [quote]i seriously believe you think last hitting is pushing, and the entire reason behind philo stones is that you are always at the enemy turret and you keep getting hit by turret or the enemy under their turret, but you're just wording it badly.[/quote] I am almost never at the enemies turret unless they have been entirely defensive to the point of not even standing near the minion battle to try to get last hits in qhich case me getting the last hit on their minions would give my the clear edge. The other situation where I am at their turret is when they have been forced back to base and I am landing some hits on their turrets before they return. Otherwise, I do not approach their turret unless I am to the point where I am ready to take it out. [quote]there's no justification for philo stones, none, on a carry.[/quote] Unlike Sivir most other champions have at least two abilities which do damage from a distance so that even if you are able to spell shield one you will still get hurt. Ricochet could count as Sivir doing this, but it is not necessarily an ability that you focus on a specific target usually. Then after the laning phase, just having these items sitting around to keep your mana up and pile up gold is nice allowing you to get your items very quickly. It shouldn't be hard at all to get a full build, by about minute 40.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]The only problem I see with this is, you are trading damage for survivability. Untill late-game, I don't see this as "good" for a carry. Truthfully, you should be playing a little carefully anyway, which diminishes the health regen you're getting. Mana shouldn't be a problem if you're midding and using your shield effectively or just not spamming many, many skills.[/quote]

[quote=Jet]this is going nowhere, so i'll say what i said at the very first post it's bad don't buy them there's no justification that's it, over, this conversation was done at the first post, i don't need to say anything more you say, basically, you farm 5000 gold by the 15 minute mark, with trips back to base for philo stones, while being harassed so badly that you would require to buy them. I know you are talking shit, you have no idea what you're saying. btw, dorans shield is the best starting item for sivir (or boots 3 pots). it doesn't matter if you sell them later, it makes you durable in lane and it's cutting down your farm for your first damage item by 1300 or so gold, in this situation where you buy philo stone.[/quote]

[quote=Svingas][quote=Lugignaf] The only problem I see with this is, you are trading damage for survivability. Untill late-game, I don't see this as "good" for a carry. Truthfully, you should be playing a little carefully anyway, which diminishes the health regen you're getting. Mana shouldn't be a problem if you're midding and using your shield effectively or just not spamming many, many skills. [/quote] Well the build that I was using before this idea was to go for a catalyst of the protector first and then go straight into the damage items, but the thing is that you do not want to be overly aggressive in those first ten minutes or you are leaving yourself open for ganks. And through only spending an extra 200-300 gold you can by two philosopher's stones in the place of the catalyst and rack up long-term gold because carries are not great early game. They need help so these items help you to survive early game when you are at your weakest, and completely explode mid-late game by getting the majority of your items earlier than your opponents. The reason I like this idea is because I was surprised by how much it does not hurt you early game. I was still able to get my bloodthirster and push over their middle tower plenty early.[/quote]

[quote=Svingas][quote=Jet] you say, basically, you farm 5000 gold by the 15 minute mark, with trips back to base for philo stones, while being harassed so badly that you would require to buy them. I know you are talking shit, you have no idea what you're saying. btw, dorans shield is the best starting item for sivir (or boots 3 pots). it doesn't matter if you sell them later, it makes you durable in lane and it's cutting down your farm for your first damage item by 1300 or so gold, in this situation where you buy philo stone. [/quote] I only ever go back to base when teleport is up and I am ready to buy my next set of items. Thus I do not lose any of the experience from mid-lane and the enemy champion is not able to push at all. You have no idea about my skill level because you have never played with or against me so you can only speculate and because I have a different opinion than your's you believed I must be horrible. I could definitely see boots and 3 pots as a good starting set for Sivir, but this is also a viable option. I will have to try out the boots and see if it works any better for the entirety of the game.[/quote]

[quote=Jet][quote]You have no idea about my skill level [/quote] did you think your guide was honestly good until i pointed out it was awful? the fact you had that guide and you bullshit about how you farm and get gold speaks volumes of skill level, honestly. but what do i know[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]take it to private messaging this thread is closed[/quote]