Best AP Mid

[quote=Temzilla][quote=albableat] [quote=temzilla] Can Talon MR stack vs Kassadin? No. Can Kassadin Armor stack vs Talon? Yes. [/quote] Im interested where you get that from??? Talon can stack MR without problem just like Kass can stack armor. Kind of retarded to say that Talon can't stack MR. Surely it will lower his damage, but just like stacking armor will lower Kass's damage... Merc Treads, natural MR/level and correct runeset result in ~100 MR which is absolutely enough to counter Kassadin's damage. [/quote] Talon has really bad base damage compared to Kassadin. Talon has to build damage in order to get damage, Kassadin can just build a Frozen Heart and still combo you if you don't build a Maw. Also, talon has serious mana problems in mid, and can't reliably build mana items. Kassadin loses the lane usually, but its not a 100% stomp.[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]ahem, idk much about kass vs talon but... > talon has mana problems > is talking about kassadin vs talon lolol :P[/quote]

[quote=Majamorra][quote=tehAsian] [[morgana]], [[Cassiopeia]], [[ryze]], and [[kennen]] are probably the best right now, although [[ryze]] isn't AP. [/quote][/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=EvilDice] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=EvilDice] [quote=Vitigam] [quote=Lugignaf] [quote=Vitigam] [quote=EvilDice] [quote=Vitigam][[Kassadin]] (though he is perma-banned) [/quote] wat [/quote] What "wat"? lol [/quote] Kass is an easily countered pick. I ban him because I know other people can't handle him usually. [/quote] Really? Who counters him? I know if you think outside of the meta, he is easily countered. But in regard to other ap mids, who counters him? [/quote] some strong aps vs him are: sion - push lane all day deny farm deny roaming ahueahueahue morde - see sion galio - see sion fizz - jump over silence while landing on his face tons of damage ahueahueahue kennen - play fuckin ballz deep agressive and you will wreck him and then theres a whole slew of AD/bruisers that rape kass. tbh you could stick any bruiser mid vs kass and he would get smashed. [/quote] [[Sion]] and [[Mordekaiser]] still don't deny [[Kassadin]] as much as you possibly want to. It allows him to pick up his farm at the tower with [[Nether Blade]] and then just get your items. [[Galio]] doesn't counter kassa at all, becomes a farm fest and kassadin will love that. [[Fizz]] is a very strong pick but a bit risky since you've got to abuse your early lane dominance and you've gotta be good with your [[Playful / Trickster]]. [[Kennen]]?! :O dafuq? I'd say kennen does well early-game but gets stomped after level six. Mages who do very well against him are also [[Morgana]], [[Cassiopeia]], [[Malzahar]] (go [[Cleanse]], bait his burst and kill him), [[Orianna]] and [[Vladimir]]. They don't have to destroy him though. Kassadin can't do much against [[Pantheon]], [[Talon]] and [[Gangplank]]. They are very strong against him. [/quote] trying to counterargue fizz as labeling him "risky pick" and then listing malz made me lol. also talon/gp/panth all fall into the ad/bruiser category and yes they all get the job done pretty easily. if you are last hitting well and push the creeps to tower you will out farm him. period. you also take map control and deny him roaming, which is a pretty big thing for kass. last hitting at tower is harder than last hitting in lane, period. it is VERY hard to farm all 6 creeps at tower, even with nether blade. if you hit W on galio and buy MR he wont be able to touch you. the point is not to harass him the point is to keep him at tower. like i said for kennen you go ballz deep aggro. you have to play risky and play very well for the matchup to work but i have stomped quite a few kassadins with kennen in my elo (tho hes also my 2nd most played). and yea, the aps you listed are all pretty good, but that is pretty much the point. there are a lot of champs that can beat kassadin and this is why he is never banned or picked in my elo [/quote] My point was that [[Fizz]] could lose the lane against [[Kassadin]] about as easily as [[Kassadin]] can lose to him. If [[Kassadin]] reaches level six without too much trouble you will experience problems against him. Also, as I said, you need to be good with [[Playful / Trickster]] in order to beat Kassa. I can imagine that [[Kennen]] works but I think it was more your skill with him than it was the matchup. I think that [[Kassadin]] should win it without too much trouble.[/quote]

[quote=Babit][quote=Temzilla] [quote=albableat] [quote=temzilla]Never send a squishy melee vs. Kassadin.[/quote] Categorizing [[talon]] as squishy melee is wrong in first place. Definitely not early-mid game. And Caster is right, [[talon]] beats the living crap out of [[kass]]. Anyone who deals high physical damage and has some tankyness does so. I've ran [[Talon]], full AD [[lee sin]], AD Caster (BT stacking)[[Graves]] against Kass mid. All destroy him completely. Just get 2 MR items (Mercs, Hex, I'm thinking) and he cannot do anything. [[Talon]] is the wors out of three since he has his own silence and he bursts harder then Lee and Graves. As for AP's, any tanky AP is good against Kassa, imo. [[ryze]] and [[vladimir]] work just fine. Cassio absolutely shits on Kassadin pre-6. [/quote] Does talon have mana problems that he has to fix before he can build defense or damage vs kassadin? Yes. Does Talon have high base damage? No. Can Talon MR stack vs Kassadin? No. Can Kassadin Armor stack vs Talon? Yes. Kassadin can prepare himself for a lane against Talon. Talon can not prepare himself for a lane against Kassadin. I'd say that Kass has the upper hand here. Their skillsets kind of fight each other, so talon has an advantage, but Kassadin doesn't get stomped by talon. [/quote] Does talon have mana problems that he has to fix before he can build defense or damage vs kassadin? 9 pts in utility tree and this is solved. Does Talon have high base damage? No? Can Talon MR stack vs Kassadin? Hexdrinker? Merc? Can Kassadin Armor stack vs Talon? How? rush Zohnya? zzz Kassadin can prepare himself for a lane against Talon. Talon can not prepare himself for a lane against Kassadin. They can both prepare for the lane wtf. I'd say that Kass has the upper hand here. No. Their skillsets kind of fight each other, so talon has an advantage, but Kassadin doesn't get stomped by talon. If equal skill level my money is always gna be on the Talon.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Babit] [quote=Temzilla] [quote=albableat] [quote=temzilla]Never send a squishy melee vs. Kassadin.[/quote] Categorizing [[talon]] as squishy melee is wrong in first place. Definitely not early-mid game. And Caster is right, [[talon]] beats the living crap out of [[kass]]. Anyone who deals high physical damage and has some tankyness does so. I've ran [[Talon]], full AD [[lee sin]], AD Caster (BT stacking)[[Graves]] against Kass mid. All destroy him completely. Just get 2 MR items (Mercs, Hex, I'm thinking) and he cannot do anything. [[Talon]] is the wors out of three since he has his own silence and he bursts harder then Lee and Graves. As for AP's, any tanky AP is good against Kassa, imo. [[ryze]] and [[vladimir]] work just fine. Cassio absolutely shits on Kassadin pre-6. [/quote] Does talon have mana problems that he has to fix before he can build defense or damage vs kassadin? Yes. Does Talon have high base damage? No. Can Talon MR stack vs Kassadin? No. Can Kassadin Armor stack vs Talon? Yes. Kassadin can prepare himself for a lane against Talon. Talon can not prepare himself for a lane against Kassadin. I'd say that Kass has the upper hand here. Their skillsets kind of fight each other, so talon has an advantage, but Kassadin doesn't get stomped by talon. [/quote] Does talon have mana problems that he has to fix before he can build defense or damage vs kassadin? 9 pts in utility tree and this is solved. Does Talon have high base damage? No? Can Talon MR stack vs Kassadin? Hexdrinker? Merc? Can Kassadin Armor stack vs Talon? How? rush Zohnya? zzz Kassadin can prepare himself for a lane against Talon. Talon can not prepare himself for a lane against Kassadin. They can both prepare for the lane wtf. I'd say that Kass has the upper hand here. No. Their skillsets kind of fight each other, so talon has an advantage, but Kassadin doesn't get stomped by talon. If equal skill level my money is always gna be on the Talon. [/quote] QFT[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla]In the lane of Kassadin vs Talon, Kassadin doesn't have mana problems where as Talon does. Talons sole advantage is [[Rake]]. Rake is why he wins the lane, NOT his silence, NOT that he is AD, NOT because Kassadin can't handle Talon's amazing burst damage. It's because Talon can outpush Kassadin. If you get a jungler involved, Kassadin is much more dangerous than Talon, and can escape more easily. All Kassadin has to do to beat a Talon overall is go Glacial Shroud > Giants Belt. Kassadin scales very good with being tanky because of his ultimate, so he is a natural counter to burst casters, including Talon. If the Kassadin makes it out of laning phase, the talon will have problems.[/quote]

[quote=Djlynx]Xerath hands down. His range, crowd control and burst make him an excellent choice. His price sure is high though. (Don't forget his awsome dance moves and design)[/quote]

[quote=albableat]Should I mention that I never max [[rake]] first on [[talon]]? You know why? [[rake]] is exactly why all the [[talon]]s are having problems. While trying to push out the lane, deny the cs to opponents and keep harassing, they forget that it has a high mana cost (hence the mana problems you are talking about) and the overpushed lane (hence getting ganked). Maxing [[rake]] on [[talon]] is equivalent to maxing [[distortion]] on [[leblanc]]. Would you ever do it? Hell no. If you level out Q, followed by either W/E (doesn't matter later), you are keeping the minion wave around your side, keep your mana high (combined mana cost for [[noxian diplomacy]]+[[cutthroat]] approximately equals that of [[rake]]) since [[cutthroat]] has quite a lengthy cooldown, you regenerate your mana and just keep E-Q E-Q E-Q at your side your side of the lane. And you know what... Kass can't do shit about that kind of harassment. It deals more damage then Rake would deal, it is guaranteed whereas [[rake]] is a skillshot and can be missed, it doesn't automatically push the lane, keeping you safe of ganks. Imo, you misunderstand [[talon]]. He should be played exactly like [[kassadin]]/[[leblanc]] are played. Single target burst damage poke while the target is unable to retaliate. When you can go for a kill, you do it, adding in your ult/ignite. Playing [[talon]] as a pushing type middle lane leaves him open for easy ganks and since all of his escapes are his offence as well, he may get caught very easily. Any thoughts about this approach?[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=albableat] Should I mention that I never max [[rake]] first on [[talon]]? You know why? [[rake]] is exactly why all the [[talon]]s are having problems. While trying to push out the lane, deny the cs to opponents and keep harassing, they forget that it has a high mana cost (hence the mana problems you are talking about) and the overpushed lane (hence getting ganked). Maxing [[rake]] on [[talon]] is equivalent to maxing [[distortion]] on [[leblanc]]. Would you ever do it? Hell no. If you level out Q, followed by either W/E (doesn't matter later), you are keeping the minion wave around your side, keep your mana high (combined mana cost for [[noxian diplomacy]]+[[cutthroat]] approximately equals that of [[rake]]) since [[cutthroat]] has quite a lengthy cooldown, you regenerate your mana and just keep E-Q E-Q E-Q at your side your side of the lane. And you know what... Kass can't do shit about that kind of harassment. It deals more damage then Rake would deal, it is guaranteed whereas [[rake]] is a skillshot and can be missed, it doesn't automatically push the lane, keeping you safe of ganks. Imo, you misunderstand [[talon]]. He should be played exactly like [[kassadin]]/[[leblanc]] are played. Single target burst damage poke while the target is unable to retaliate. When you can go for a kill, you do it, adding in your ult/ignite. Playing [[talon]] as a pushing type middle lane leaves him open for easy ganks and since all of his escapes are his offence as well, he may get caught very easily. Any thoughts about this approach? [/quote] If you don't push the lane, Kassadin automatically wins, because he scales much better into late game. You have to have kill potential on him before level 6 or he wins the lane automatically because of how strong his R is.[/quote]