I'm against Support Abuse. Are you?

[quote=koksei]PSHHHH[/quote]

[quote=MDC][quote=DuffTime] [quote=MDC] Why? [/quote] Because supports generally are fairly low impact end game. AD carries are low impact early game and some of mid game. Mobility powercreep is problematic for AD carries, and with champions like Nautilus, Malphite, and J4 floating around, it can be very difficult to be effective regardless of how well you play. I just think the role of AD carry is over rated, and I think the support/AD carry lane is over rated as well. [/quote] So how to replace this set up?[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]You're looking at it from the top down. Look at it from the ground up. What makes a support viable is the ability to perform well without gold. That's it. All the other things are just champion characteristics. That's why Janna and Soraka are both legitimate supports. they both function well with or without gold. All the CC and activatable items you've mentioned can be, and often times are, purchased on other champions, tanks with CC and bruisers as well. Often times the skills that the tanks and bruisers possess are on par or even better than the skills that the supports possess.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=MDC] So how to replace this set up? [/quote] There isn't just one answer, actually. There are a few answers. Twitch jungles well, and has a terrifying early game with his ganks. Late game, when he pops ulti, he's one of the best AD carries in the whole game. The reason people don't play him more often, in my opinion, is quite simply because two AD carries is too many, and everybody wants to run the AD bot lane, NO MATTER WHAT! If you run a Twitch jungle, you can entirely forgo a support/AD carry lane altogether, and run two bruisers bot lane who both build GP10 items. We've seen Jarvan Leona, but there are a LOT of other combos that work where you subtract the Leona from the equation and replace her with a mid game solid bruiser. J4 / Wukong is one of the most effective combos, a team I was in used it to win a small tournament, until the other teams started banning it. I think Jayce can also jungle well enough and be played as a pseudo AD carry late game if you so desire. There's other effective bot lane combos which can crush AD carry / Support lanes when played properly as well, and there's no real NEED to have an AD carry either, it's just not necessarily a MUST HAVE BOT LANE thing is all I'm referring to with the jungle bit. It's also entirely viable to run 1-2 tanks, 2-3 bruisers and an AP carry. Quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if 1-2 tanks and 3-4 bruisers worked. They tend to have good enough CC's and damage to be able to win a game without need of a designated damage dealer, and their gap closers are often substantial. Every team comp will have it's own unique pros and cons, but I truly believe that people are handicapping themselves by thinking you must have any role in any given game. The one thing I do think is that double AP + an AD carry is far too squishy. Particularly because the 4th champion is usually a squishy support with no items as well and that's 4 soft champs.[/quote]

[quote=Embracing]But then the AD carry's gold income is reduced though right? And for your dual-bruiser bot do you run gp5 runes on them or just standard + gp5 items[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=RosePhoenix] But then the AD carry's gold income is reduced though right? And for your dual-bruiser bot do you run gp5 runes on them or just standard + gp5 items [/quote] Maybe? Twitch can potentially get super fed in the jungle. Besides, until I.E / PD, the carry is generally fairly weak regardless in comparison to other champions. AD carries early game are just sort of a non-factor. Sometimes you'll see a fight around dragon where the AD just happens to get 3-4 kills and then they go bonkers early game, but generally speaking the AD archetype does not really take off until they get at least 2-3 complete items. A strong AP mid with a tank or two and 2-3 bruisers will be able to protect a weaker jungle carry and deal so much damage mid game even without him, that the carry will get fed off of assists and global gold accrued from objectives like early towers and dragons and barons. And again, you don't even really need the AD carry at all.[/quote]

[quote=Pølsemanden]Double bruisers weaknes is that it needs waaaay more cooperation than ad support. Also, supports are so ez to play so drunk players Can have a go at lol as well[/quote]

[quote=BluAnimal]So your team would look like... [list] [*][[wukong]] top [*][[twitch]] jungle [*][[anivia]] mid [*][[jarvan iv]] bot [*][[riven]] bot [/list] So I'm guessing solo top would farm it up and stuff, Twitch is off in the jungle, mid is doing their normal thing. But with bot lane... Would you make Jarvan run G/10 items on him, since he already does it effectively in top lane? And then Riven would get the farm?[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]But if you want to run this, better ban [[soraka]] and maybe [[taric]]. Blitzstar is also a well known bot lane. [[urgot]] is an AD-carry which can easily brake the meta aswell. I think the best combo would be: [[swain]]/[[kennen]]/[[galio]](tanky mage) top/mid [[urgot]] top/mid Any tanky jungler, which deals good damage aswell, maybe [[olaf]]/[[riven]]. bot lane [[blitzcrank]]+[[alistar]] or [[jarvan Iv]]+[[wukong]] or whatever works well. CLG tried this once but they couldn't defeat the enemy bot lane and top lane [[swain]] got stomped. But that doesn't mean it can't work.[/quote]

[quote=LaronX]The idea behind Ad/support bot is not just have someone with no farm or CC or something. The main Idea behind is to get the persones who can deal the most dmg in late game through the weak time and enable thm to farm. While some AD carrys have a decent laning or okish early dmg they fall of pretty hard in the first few levels unless they got fed or a lot of farm. Most AP and Bruiser out shine them at that point of the game. And if they start to snowball on you... well it is never good if the enemy snowballs on you. Bruiser comps on the other hand are not see that offen becaus if they fail to keep down the enemy carry they will melt them and will get denide on there side. In team fights they will miss the dmg an AD carry provieds. Also bruiser vs bruiser is boring as no one has enough dmg to burst the other down. Lastly why you put supports bit instead of bruiser ADs is simple. While Bruiser/AD can get kills pretty easy if done right, Support/AD on the other hand is pretty to easy to play, pretty safe , needs less comuncation and provieds the team with utility. This is not limited to items, ask Duff pointed out everyone can get them, but from there skill kit, CC is one from but more crucial is stuff like heals/shilds, auras and buffs. Champs that can give those stuff to others work normaly without farm on top of that they don't scale as good as other more dmg oriented champs. If you really want to break the support/AD bot you need to find another way to keep the AD safe and give him farm. AD mid works for that , but becaus of the weak mid game Ap carrys work better, and some work time but with the recent gank to early to let is snowball hard it would be hard as you are easy to gank and can't help much in an early gank. The best way to change the meta would probably be AD mid and Ap bruiser bot.[/quote]