PBE, interesting new stuff

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard][quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0]Solo Karma isn't bad. It's nonexistent. OMG they nerfed the lesser played form of a champion nobody plays.[/quote]More like "OMG they killed the role they claim is her primary role without fixing any of her actual problems". They've just amplified her problems by making her definitely have one functional damage spell without giving her hard CC in return, which will make her worse in both roles. When was the last time support [[Karma]] wasn't just a secondary mage? season two? She needs hard CC and consistent damage outside of her Q (and a nerf on her Q, likely, to facilitate such changes), not damage nerfs and utility buffs to skills no one uses, because she still has to max Q to be functional, support or no. Her skill order won't change, because she can't win any lanes maxing those new versions of her other skills instead of her Q; thusly neither will her skill empowerment priority in teamfights, because the empowered versions of her other skills will only become more niche than they already were.[/quote]

[quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0][quote=The_Nameless_Bard]More like "OMG they killed the role they claim is her primary role without fixing any of her actual problems".[/quote] I'm pretty sure they knew she was a support over a top laner and I'm not having the only person who plays top lane Karma tell me otherwise. It still doesn't matter. [quote=The_Nameless_Bard]She needs hard CC and consistent damage outside of her Q (and a nerf on her Q, likely, to facilitate such changes), not damage nerfs and utility buffs to skills no one uses, because she still has to max Q to be functional, support or no. [/quote] Yeah because that wouldn't require a complete overhaul of her entire kit and isn't broken in any way. [quote=The_Nameless_Bard]Her skill order won't change, because she can't win any lanes maxing those new versions of her other skills instead of her Q. [/quote] If you buff the other skills and nerf the actual damaging spell, which did ridiculous damage anyway, how do they become more niche? Shouldn't they be exactly as common? And if the skills provide utility while empowered, which they do, wouldn't the priority be dependent on what your team needs rather than damage?[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]Hard CC won't make her broken if added properly. Might make her scale into late game though, which is actually the reason no one plays her. They're not giving effective buffs to her skills, they're just making her late game even more nonexistent by making her more reliant on one single skill. The empowered versions of the others still won't be as effective as her Q, because they're not nerfing that and she still has to max it first to do anything in lane. I've played top lane [[Karma]] twice ever since her rework, so don't act like that's an argument. I main support, buddy. She's still listed as a mage by riot, not as a support. Back before her rework most of the few people (that includes me, because I've been playing her since her release) who played her did so as a solo laner, not a support.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=The_Nameless_Bard]I've played top lane [[Karma]] twice ever since her rework, so don't act like that's an argument. I main support, buddy. She's still listed as a mage by riot, not as a support. Back before her rework most of the few people (that includes me, because I've been playing her since her release) who played her did so as a solo laner, not a support.[/quote] She was so much better as a solo laner, imo. Now that she only has one damaging spell, and it doesn't have the best CC on it, she's not even capable of going solo. I mean, cool. You get a slightly bigger shield on RE, but the damage swung fights far more than the AoE shield. You get a heal for your team on W now, but it really doesn't heal for a whole lot, and it's not going to be important. I mean, look at [url=http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/skill/open-wounds-319]Lifestealer's skil[/url]l. It's 50% and also not very good. I mean, sure it's on a melee carry, but the tether's range is pretty short, so if you want to use it, you're probably in danger. The "buffs" to Karma are nowhere near the level of nerfs to her solo lane. EDIT: I know W does damage still, but it's really not a whole lot. You used it for the CC or the heal, not the damage it did.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Only a scrub would ever compare DOTA in any way to League, as basically everything is different except that the map has 3 lanes and towers on it. W deals as much damage as Q. BTW: To start everything new, Karma W changed again. Also buffs to the yellow support line and a change to [[ardent censer]]. Finally, Ekko nerfs.[/quote]

[quote=DillButt64][quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0][quote=The_Nameless_Bard]More like "OMG they killed the role they claim is her primary role without fixing any of her actual problems".[/quote] I'm pretty sure they knew she was a support over a top laner and I'm not having the only person who plays top lane Karma tell me otherwise. It still doesn't matter. [/quote] i was actually talking about mid lane karma when i said solo lane, no one plays her top lane anymore because she doesnt fit up there (also lissandra) and like Nameless i played her as a solo laner before her rework and it kinda sucks seeing her shoved into the support role now also NicknameMy the W only deals as much damage as the Q if you get the full duration of the tether which is hard because the tether range is low[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=NicknameMy]Only a scrub would ever compare DOTA in any way to League, as basically everything is different except that the map has 3 lanes and towers on it. [/quote] I was comparing two [b]skills[/b] that are similar. Not the whole game. Anyway, still not liking the new-new changes. [spoiler]Gathering Fire (passive) CD refund on spell hit increased to 2/2.5/3 at level 1/7/13 from 2 at all levels. CD refund on basic attack increased to 1/1.25/1.5 at level 1/7/13 from 1 at all levels Renewal (R+W) No longer deals damage New Effect: Increases root duration (if triggered) by .75/1/1.25/1.5 seconds Inspire (E) Cooldown lowered to 10/9/8/7/6 seconds from 10 seconds at all ranks Mana cost lowered to 60/65/70/75/80 from 60/70/80/90/100. Shield amount decreased to 80/110/140/170/200 from 80/120/160/200/240 Defiance (R+E) No longer deals damage Now increases primary shield by 30/90/150/210 (+30% AP) AoE shield amount increased to 50% of the primary target's shield from 30/70/100/150 {Note that these changes are RELATIVE TO CURRENT LIVE VALUES. The previous set of changes has essentially been "reverted" and replaced with this set.} [/spoiler] She still loses a damage spell, she loses a second damage spell if RW is used for the heal, and the only thing I like about the changes are the passive and the W increased root time.[/quote]

[quote=DillButt64]im not a fan of those changes either, im hoping they at least put some of the AoE damage back on RE[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Why they should actually? You can't RQ + RE anyway, so RQ is for damage, RW for sustain and cc and RE for initiation power. This is also way easier balanceable than if everything would deal bonus damage. Also, you still have to respect that you get way more Mantra charges now.[/quote]

[quote=DillButt64]RE was good for if you had a tank in the team and needed AoE damage to hit more people than an RQ would plus hitting 5 people with RE would take ten seconds off your ult giving you a faster RQ meaning you could RE + RQ when riot reworked karma they wanted it to feel like using your ult would be a big choice instead of only using one, now each one has its purpose except only one of them has a good/consistent purpose for mage karma[/quote]