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Reworking The Scout System

Creator: Maintained February 25, 2019 5:31pm
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PsiGuard
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 27, 2019 12:35pm | Report
Hey guys, thanks to everyone who's provided feedback on this. Lots of interesting ideas so far. I wanted to clear up a few things so we can focus on the most pressing issues and feasible solutions since some things are off the table.

First of all, it'll be easier to pitch any system that requires minimal developer time. The more dev work required to set up a new Scouting system, that harder of a sell it'll be.

Secondly, it doesn't sound like we're going to be doing anything drastic to the guide listings. Something like a Scouted tag should be doable (provided some other issues are addressed), but we won't be adding a secondary scoring system, stickying guides, or allowing Scouts to influence guide scores directly (other than through regular voting). Likewise, the Scout system is meant to highlight good guides, not tear down bad ones.

I'll list what I believe to be the most pressing issues that would need solving to revive the Scout system. Some of these have had some potential solutions suggested already, but I'm still open to more discussion on these points.
  • We need a way to ensure Scouts are consistently active over time (requirements, incentives).
  • We need clear criteria for selecting new Scouts.
  • We need clear criteria for what a guide needs to have to deserve to be Scouted (and how many Scouts need to sign off on it).
  • We need a way to reevaluate guides over time to ensure Scouted guides are always high quality (if we use some sort of decay system, how do we notify Scouts that a guide has lost its Scouted status)?

A few ideas have been brought up that aren't as crucial to the system but may be useful avenues to explore. Answering some of these questions would make it clearer what kind of system we'd be going for.
  • Should Scouts be required to leave a comment on guides that they Scout?
  • Should Scout promotion require a minimum solo queue rank?
  • Is there a useful way to suggest guides to Scout (user requests, in-depth tag, some kind of automated feed)?
  • How can we ensure Scouted guides are of sufficient quality while maintaining each individual Scout's agency?
  • What kind of incentive would be appropriate to offer Scouts to encourage them to remain active?
  • Would a dedicated Discord server be useful for coordinating Scouting (moreso than the subforum)?
  • Are there any other places on the site where we could feature Scouted guides (besides possibly a tag in the listings)?

Feel free to post your thoughts if you have any ideas regarding the topics listed above. Remember, dev work is a factor so any suggestions that require minimal dev work are more likely to be feasible than ones involving building new tools.

Thanks again for all your feedback so far.
Thanks to Janitsu for the sig!
KuuHaKu_OtgmZ
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 27, 2019 5:19pm | Report
Oh, hey there Psi!
I'll leave my 2 cents for your questions:
Quoted:
We need clear criteria for selecting new Scouts.
Maybe add a requirement where the applicant must have commented on X different guides in the month (and stay above this threshold on subsequent months).

Quoted:
We need clear criteria for what a guide needs to have to deserve to be Scouted (and how many Scouts need to sign off on it).
One clear requirement would be to have at least in-depth tag, then maybe add additional requirement of having X amount of votes/views (views would be better, since there are some guides that have high viewer counts but struggle to get votes).

Quoted:
Should Scouts be required to leave a comment on guides that they Scout?
Ummm...maybe, but it shouldn't be required. Maybe giving the vote a bigger value/lifetime if the scout commented.

Quoted:
Should Scout promotion require a minimum solo queue rank?
Absolutely no! There are people (like me) that deeply researched the game's mechanics but just haven't got luck/time to reach higher elos.

Quoted:
Is there a useful way to suggest guides to Scout (user requests, in-depth tag, some kind of automated feed)?
Maybe add a new option next to the vote button that when someone (not scout) clicks it adds the guide to a page/category with guides that are with pending evaluation.

Quoted:
What kind of incentive would be appropriate to offer Scouts to encourage them to remain active?
Maybe earn tickets for voting? This is up to you @ PsiGuard!

Quoted:
Would a dedicated Discord server be useful for coordinating Scouting (moreso than the subforum)?
More than necessary!

Quoted:
Are there any other places on the site where we could feature Scouted guides (besides possibly a tag in the listings)?
I vote for a new sort option on guides list (people can select to show only guides which have been evaluated). Also, maybe adding a new panel to the right showing recently evaluated guides (like the "New Guide Authors" panel).
Make sure to check my guides!
Maintained
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 27, 2019 7:30pm | Report
Sounds like we're sticking to the same system with different managing. Not sure if that will make guides shine as opposed to just making them shinier with an extra tag, but it's better than having no system at all.

PsiGuard wrote:
  • Should Scouts be required to leave a comment on guides that they Scout?
  • Should Scout promotion require a minimum solo queue rank?
  • Is there a useful way to suggest guides to Scout (user requests, in-depth tag, some kind of automated feed)?
  • How can we ensure Scouted guides are of sufficient quality while maintaining each individual Scout's agency?
  • What kind of incentive would be appropriate to offer Scouts to encourage them to remain active?
  • Would a dedicated Discord server be useful for coordinating Scouting (moreso than the subforum)?
  • Are there any other places on the site where we could feature Scouted guides (besides possibly a tag in the listings)?


I'm going to keep all the questions in one quote to make it shorter. Going to answer each question individually

> Formally, no. If a scout's vote doesn't influence guide rankings and can't negatively affect guides at all, there isn't need for it. However, on whatever platform we end up using (I assume it'll likely be discord), it would be nice if the scouts gave some quick thoughts on whichever guides were posted, does't even have to be more than a sentence. As long as it's not just "nice guide."

> While I don't think solo queue ranks should be the only deciding factor, it's definitely a huge influence. Although one should keep in mind that not all high elo players can make good scouts, and on the other hand, not all low elo players would necessarily make bad scouts, albeit a rare thing. I think what they have to offer in terms of reliability should be looked at before their rank basically.

> In-depth tag + user request is the way to go imo. A non in-depth guide should not be able to request a scout review. Likewise, not all in-depth guides are actually in-depth, so having it become an automatic process might simply be a waste of time.

> That would start with promoting those who are qualified to begin with, rather than anyone meeting the required rep count. They could then give voice to their opinion to convince people if need be, although it would be hard to give an individual person any agency if 9 people disagree with them and they're the only one who agrees.

> I'm not sure what reward I would want, but I'm not sure if tickets would be the way to go. You wouldn't want a way to achieve more tickets being exclusive to certain members.

> I'm not sure if we would need a dedicated server. Maybe just a dedicated text channel in the mobafire discord will do. Would definitely prefer discord over Mobafire forums though that's for sure.

> One idea that I have is that scouted guides would be guaranteed a featured guide spot during the related free week, and we'd be able to have more than three per week with little to no manual work required.

Special thanks to Jovy for the signature! Check out her shop
Latest Legend
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 28, 2019 12:25pm | Report
Maybe it would be cool to feature one to three guides with a little motivation/review in a news post every week or two?

For what it's worth:
PsiGuard wrote:
  • Should Scouts be required to leave a comment on guides that they Scout?
  • Should Scout promotion require a minimum solo queue rank?
  • Is there a useful way to suggest guides to Scout (user requests, in-depth tag, some kind of automated feed)?
  • How can we ensure Scouted guides are of sufficient quality while maintaining each individual Scout's agency?
  • What kind of incentive would be appropriate to offer Scouts to encourage them to remain active?
  • Would a dedicated Discord server be useful for coordinating Scouting (moreso than the subforum)?
  • Are there any other places on the site where we could feature Scouted guides (besides possibly a tag in the listings)?


> No strong opinion

> Challenger guide writers are not going to like negative reviews from a bronze scout, with good reason I think. Game knowledge and other skills (linguistics, keeping up with the latest, etc.) are nice but I would at least want scouts to have shed their share of blood and tears on the fields of justice. I think all veterans can at least get themselves to gold to prove themselves (and then still, I would do some rigorous selection for gold-plat players). Exceptions happen. (EDIT: but I would at least like to have a high chance that one high elo (dia+) player were to be involved in every sign off)

> Depending on what the goal is: either a feed of new in-depth guides or a combination of requests, in depth tags, and wandering scouts.

> I think the sign off system you mention is fine. If the scouts are well selected (and the selection is maintained), there should be little issue here.

> No idea.

> Not a scout.

> In periodic news posts, with some nice words.
********'s a pretty good fertilizer
jhoijhoi
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 28, 2019 11:02pm | Report
Things I've said before and still believe:

1) Scouting shouldn't be anonymous.
2) -Scouting is toxic and does nothing beyond ridicule authors. Super fun to have -6 scout points on your guide without any feedback as to why.
3) +Scouts require comments or forms or something to indicate WHY the guide was scouted

Agree with:
- Scouts should be rewarded for actively scouting (points for the raffle?)
- The idea of scouting guides based on free champion rotation
- Scout comments/forms stickied at the top of guide comments, on the proviso that every year they expire and desticky
- Scout being of elo Gold+ AND/OR certain amount of +rep or usefulness on MobaFire
- FatelBlade's comment about conflict of interest (ie authoring a guide for x champion and scouting for the same champion)

Disagree with:
- Scout votes weighing more than other votes. Scout votes should be separate from normal voting. It doesn't need a separate vote bar, as per Maintained's example, but a small tag like "Scouted" would be neat.
- Requesting scout votes is not necessary if scouts can only vote on free-week champions
- Vapora being able to +scout when he has a guide for every new champion a week before it is released and probably a guide written for every single champion but archived, just waiting for free-week/the champion to be FotM to unarchive
- C2Scout wouldn't be about fixing bad guides. If you're +scouting, then you're saying what is GOOD about the guide.
- Dedicated Discord server. Scouting doesn't need to be "unanimous". A scout notices a guide, it is flagged as scouted, you (PsiGuard) review it for Featured status.

New ideas:
* +Scouting a guide puts it on the "Featured" list rotation for PsiGuard to peruse.
* Decay or expiry of scout points should be the same as normal votes - just archive votes every season

General thoughts:
+ Devs have more important things to worry about, like making the website mobile responsive
+ Scout system as-is is useless
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