TF Unplayable? =(

[quote=Maphis]They just nerfed his ult because it was so disgusting in both solo queue and competitive play, in solo queue you could do push sidelanes 24/7 and still be in perfect position for every teamfight just ridiculous. He's still completely viable atm, he's a very strong mid lane if played AP because you can just stand back and spam wildcards while never going oom. I heard AD tf is making a comeback aswell because when you're in botlane with a taric or alistar you can double stun which is just very good.[/quote]

[quote=Rudmed]@trojan Okay let me name some pokes real quick. [[Disintegrate]],[[baleful strike]],[[null sphere]],[[Javelin Toss / Takedown]]. Now lets look at [[wild cards]]...uh oh. I see less base, and scale with wild cards. Maybe they have more range, but like I said in damage outshone. For champs that have more sustain. [[Malzahar]] most likely [[Twisted Fate]], with [[Karthus]], and [[Swain]] coming in a close 3rd. Also I included distracted for a reason, when I play TF they normally don't care that I have a gold card (If its teamfight time), but after its tossed then they care...alot. Of course if they are smart to focus you, that autoattack range is dangerous as most champions have a charge, or a stun. Surely you know what happens if you get caught close range as TF, or stunned. Either you win, or you die..usually the latter. @Evil, yeah that hasn't changed. Now it comes down to how good you are with TF. If you are good like Trojan, Jeffery, or I Then you have a pretty good idea of what you're doing. Now about that ult commment of walking five steps. It depends on how much postioning you want, the better postioning the more time it takes for you to be ready which =MIA call. Now if you stand in the river bushes on either side of mid then you can get to the edge of the lane you are trying to gank. Now you have a second variable in the mix, which is the other mid champion (if he/she is still there). Now as you sit there waiting for the right momment, what if the other champion gets suspicous, and jumps on you while you're distracted? You get silenced as your about to warp in, or whatever. Those teammates that you told to go in might not realize it, and get killed, or all of you might end up dead (worst case scenario). Best case scenario is that you all get out alive, and now harm is done beside a wasted ultimate or two. His kit is subpar compared to some casters/carries whatever. /long lecture.[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995][quote=Rudmed] @trojan Okay let me name some pokes real quick. [[Disintegrate]],[[baleful strike]],[[null sphere]],[[Javelin Toss / Takedown]]. Now lets look at [[wild cards]]...uh oh. I see less base, and scale with wild cards. Maybe they have more range, but like I said in damage outshone. For champs that have more sustain. [[Malzahar]] most likely [[Twisted Fate]], with [[Karthus]], and [[Swain]] coming in a close 3rd. Also I included distracted for a reason, when I play TF they normally don't care that I have a gold card (If its teamfight time), but after its tossed then they care...alot. Of course if they are smart to focus you, that autoattack range is dangerous as most champions have a charge, or a stun. Surely you know what happens if you get caught close range as TF, or stunned. Either you win, or you die..usually the latter. @Evil, yeah that hasn't changed. Now it comes down to how good you are with TF. If you are good like Trojan, Jeffery, or I Then you have a pretty good idea of what you're doing. Now about that ult commment of walking five steps. It depends on how much postioning you want, the better postioning the more time it takes for you to be ready which =MIA call. Now if you stand in the river bushes on either side of mid then you can get to the edge of the lane you are trying to gank. Now you have a second variable in the mix, which is the other mid champion (if he/she is still there). Now as you sit there waiting for the right momment, what if the other champion gets suspicous, and jumps on you while you're distracted? You get silenced as your about to warp in, or whatever. Those teammates that you told to go in might not realize it, and get killed, or all of you might end up dead (worst case scenario). Best case scenario is that you all get out alive, and now harm is done beside a wasted ultimate or two. His kit is subpar compared to some casters/carries whatever. /long lecture. [/quote] Those skills hardly count as poke. Wild cards does more base damage as disintegrate, has more than double the range, and is AoE! 3 cards, and they can all hit an infinite number of targets without losing damage. Both of annie's AoE spells are very close range. Literally the only poke you listed that compares with [[wild cards]] is javelin toss. [[malzahar]] doesn't have more sustain - his sustain usually just puts a damper on the mana costs while farming, and twisted fate's blue card generally has a net gain of mana. Moreover, malzahar has to push his lane hard to farm. Well yeah, 510 auto attack range isn't exactly great, but there's mage that have to get closer range and they're still viable - [[force pulse]] and [[incinerate]] come to mind. His kit isn't sub-par as a caster, he's just not first pick/ban worthy.[/quote]

[quote=Slizer002]Ashe is 1000000000 times better than TF as AD carry, Anivia is 100000 times better than TF as AP carry. End.[/quote]

[quote=Rudmed][quote=Trojan995] Those skills hardly count as poke. Wild cards does more base damage as disintegrate, has more than double the range, and is AoE! 3 cards, and they can all hit an infinite number of targets without losing damage. Both of annie's AoE spells are very close range. Literally the only poke you listed that compares with [[wild cards]] is javelin toss. [[malzahar]] doesn't have more sustain - his sustain usually just puts a damper on the mana costs while farming, and twisted fate's blue card generally has a net gain of mana. Moreover, malzahar has to push his lane hard to farm. Well yeah, 510 auto attack range isn't exactly great, but there's mage that have to get closer range and they're still viable - [[force pulse]] and [[incinerate]] come to mind. His kit isn't sub-par as a caster, he's just not first pick/ban worthy. [/quote] Uh wait a second.... a poke is something some what spammable. So [[Disintegrate]], [[baleful strike]], and [[Javelin Toss / Takedown]]. They have lower or the same cooldowns as [[Wild cards]]. Once again they are better in DAMAGE (the thing, I'm trying to point out. Not RANGE). 85>60 Trojan, now late game 260>245, but Disintegrate will scale better thus doing more damage. Also [[Wild cards]] are AOE, but rarely will the other two cards hit unless that person is out of postion (or at short range). Malz can get more mana back from about two creep waves (depending on if he maxed E first). [[Force pulse]] Has a slow and not to mention Kass has [[Riftwalk]]. [[Annie]] will rarely [[Incinerate]] unless she has her stun up, or has dropped tibbers on your face.[/quote]

[quote=Rudmed][quote=Slizer002] Ashe is 1000000000 times better than TF as AD carry, Anivia is 100000 times better than TF as AP carry. End. [/quote] And then Riot releases another super OP champion intended to take TF's hybrid postion. And that kids is why you don't see TF anymore.[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995][quote=Rudmed] [quote=Trojan995] Those skills hardly count as poke. Wild cards does more base damage as disintegrate, has more than double the range, and is AoE! 3 cards, and they can all hit an infinite number of targets without losing damage. Both of annie's AoE spells are very close range. Literally the only poke you listed that compares with [[wild cards]] is javelin toss. [[malzahar]] doesn't have more sustain - his sustain usually just puts a damper on the mana costs while farming, and twisted fate's blue card generally has a net gain of mana. Moreover, malzahar has to push his lane hard to farm. Well yeah, 510 auto attack range isn't exactly great, but there's mage that have to get closer range and they're still viable - [[force pulse]] and [[incinerate]] come to mind. His kit isn't sub-par as a caster, he's just not first pick/ban worthy. [/quote] Uh wait a second.... a poke is something some what spammable. So [[Disintegrate]], [[baleful strike]], and [[Javelin Toss / Takedown]]. They have lower or the same cooldowns as [[Wild cards]]. Once again they are better in DAMAGE (the thing, I'm trying to point out. Not RANGE). 85>60 Trojan, now late game 260>245, but Disintegrate will scale better thus doing more damage. Also [[Wild cards]] are AOE, but rarely will the other two cards hit unless that person is out of postion (or at short range). Malz can get more mana back from about two creep waves (depending on if he maxed E first). [[Force pulse]] Has a slow and not to mention Kass has [[Riftwalk]]. [[Annie]] will rarely [[Incinerate]] unless she has her stun up, or has dropped tibbers on your face. [/quote] A poke is ranged damage without trading blows. No, those aren't pokes because you have to be within range of the enemy's spells to land them. When is annie going to [[disintegrate]] an enemy under the tower and get away? Never, because anyone who has CC will lock her down and violate her in ways that will get them sent to prison. The 2 side cards might not always hit things, but the 1st card is AoE too - you can hit any amount of champions in a line with it. As malzahar maxes his E, the mana return actually gets worse. At level 1, it costs 60 and gets 10 mana per minion. It takes 6 minions to return enough mana to break even with the cost, which means you must kill an entire wave with malefic visions. Is that feasible? No, that happens sometimes but VERY rarely. Next rank, the cost increases by 15 but the return only increases by 4. The return gets worse as you rank up - you're not going to be able to farm more than an entire wave with a single malefic visions. Twiste fate's blue card actually has a net gain of mana, unlike malzahar. Your argument is that TF can't get within 510 range to stun, but kassadin is okay getting within 400 range to slow the enemy? Not to burst your bubble, but kass can only rift in or out, not both within 4 seconds. That gives you enough time to stun him and deal hefty damage to him. It's especially easy when he's saving his rift to get away (lol). I'm not trying to argue that twisted fate is #1 carry. I'm trying to argue he's [b]viable[/b]. He only got his ganking and split pushing nerfed. Everything else about him is still phenomenally powerful. You guys are looking at "flaws" that are intrinsic in other champs, yet it's overlooked because the pros heavily outweigh the cons. [[wild cards]] don't do damage? Yes they do. [[pick a card]] range too short? It's bad range, but it's a stun. There's myriad opportunities to land a 510 range stun in any and every fight you're in. [[stacked deck]] isn't too good, but it has its uses. [[destiny]] doesn't have the same feel, but you can still execute many strategies that you could before the nerf. What does this all add up to? Good champ. Not the best, but still very good and [b]best at what he does[/b]. [quote]Ashe is 1000000000 times better than TF as AD carry, Anivia is 100000 times better than TF as AP carry. End.[/quote] Actually, ashe has a mediocre early game while AD Twisted fate is gaining prominence because of his amazing bottom lane stun combined with alistar/taric crushing.[/quote]

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS]I played TF because his kit was fun and interesting, all of his short comings were made up for by the fact that pre-nerf you could get yourself to where you NEEDED to be in a teamfight without restraint. Now it's a bit more of a gamble. You either leash yourself to within 5k units of your team (giving you 500 units room to adjust or select your positioning. Or you end up trying to tele in and find yourself in a bad position. Short CD stun...Well if you can pull off yellow cards in succession then yes it is short CD. Otherwise you can be waiting for ~4 plus trying to kite someone (meanwhile not doing any damage to them less they catch you).... Split pushing? Sure, TF can still split push, but it's not anywhere near as potent as it used to be. Summoner tele in to one lane and then ulti....Well ulti 5500 units away, that isn't the opposite lane that's in the enemy forest or somewhere that isn't near the enemy. Used to be able actually forge a comeback or solidify a lead with split pushing as TF....Now if you're split pushing and a team fight breaks out you're in a very dangerous boat. If TF is still viable then why wasn't he played at Gamescom? I certainly don't remember him being banned in any games. Which usually meant (pre "re-work") he was going to be first picked....But no one played him that I can re-call, he wasn't even banned....I mean sure we can debate the validity of that FACT by saying "Well the pros just don't know that he is still strong", I counter that argument by saying, "Why do we consider them pros if they don't know what champs are strong picks or how to play most if not all of the champs?" Isn't that the job of a pro gamer? To know how to play their game of choice? To my knowledge Gamescom was playing on the patch in which TF had already been re-worked. We didn't see him played...Didn't see him banned...Maybe I'm missing something? Maybe changing the signature skill of a champion to be less useful doesn't affect their over-all performance. We could test this, reduce the range of Annie's Ultimate. One of the best AP carrys in the game, reduce her range to be 5/8s of what it is now. Send her mid, against an Annie with the current Tibber's range. If you guys are right, then the change (assuming both opposing players are equally skilled) won't effect Annie at all. She'll play just as well as ever, still be great in teamfights, still do her job with the same amount of challenge (or lack there of) "pre-rework". Maybe I'm being overly dramatic. IMO TF is less of a threat than he used to be. But people who want to keep playing him, keep on playing him. These are just opinions, not always meant to see eye to eye. I already mentioned I'm playing other champs and having plenty of fun ^_^.[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995][quote=JEFFY40HANDS] I played TF because his kit was fun and interesting, all of his short comings were made up for by the fact that pre-nerf you could get yourself to where you NEEDED to be in a teamfight without restraint. Now it's a bit more of a gamble. You either leash yourself to within 5k units of your team (giving you 500 units room to adjust or select your positioning. Or you end up trying to tele in and find yourself in a bad position. Short CD stun...Well if you can pull off yellow cards in succession then yes it is short CD. Otherwise you can be waiting for ~4 plus trying to kite someone (meanwhile not doing any damage to them less they catch you).... Split pushing? Sure, TF can still split push, but it's not anywhere near as potent as it used to be. Summoner tele in to one lane and then ulti....Well ulti 5500 units away, that isn't the opposite lane that's in the enemy forest or somewhere that isn't near the enemy. Used to be able actually forge a comeback or solidify a lead with split pushing as TF....Now if you're split pushing and a team fight breaks out you're in a very dangerous boat. If TF is still viable then why wasn't he played at Gamescom? I certainly don't remember him being banned in any games. Which usually meant (pre "re-work") he was going to be first picked....But no one played him that I can re-call, he wasn't even banned....I mean sure we can debate the validity of that FACT by saying "Well the pros just don't know that he is still strong", I counter that argument by saying, "Why do we consider them pros if they don't know what champs are strong picks or how to play most if not all of the champs?" Isn't that the job of a pro gamer? To know how to play their game of choice? To my knowledge Gamescom was playing on the patch in which TF had already been re-worked. We didn't see him played...Didn't see him banned...Maybe I'm missing something? Maybe changing the signature skill of a champion to be less useful doesn't affect their over-all performance. We could test this, reduce the range of Annie's Ultimate. One of the best AP carrys in the game, reduce her range to be 5/8s of what it is now. Send her mid, against an Annie with the current Tibber's range. If you guys are right, then the change (assuming both opposing players are equally skilled) won't effect Annie at all. She'll play just as well as ever, still be great in teamfights, still do her job with the same amount of challenge (or lack there of) "pre-rework". Maybe I'm being overly dramatic. IMO TF is less of a threat than he used to be. But people who want to keep playing him, keep on playing him. These are just opinions, not always meant to see eye to eye. I already mentioned I'm playing other champs and having plenty of fun ^_^. [/quote] Provided you're split pushing top/bottom while your team is mid, you shouldn't have a problem split pushing (though it depends on the game). Even with the wait time on cards altogether, it's a MUCH shorter stun than most other skills. [[bandage toss]] is an 8 second cooldown by comparison (gold card is 5, but if you factor in 3 seconds for picking the card I guess you have a point), and you can miss bandage toss while gold card is auto attack. There are plenty of potent champions that never get banned. Usually they either ban obscenely OP champions (orianna) or they ban champions to counter their enemy's main champ (hotshotnidaleegg). If he didn't get played in the tournament that's a shame, but not even all the champs considered tier 1 got played. I can't say for sure about any of the recent tournaments, but you hardly see anivia anymore and she's one of the best casters - far outclasses many of the more popular ones. I mean, yes twisted fate is less of a threat - but that was necessary! He was insanely OP before. Now he's balanced. He's literally only less of a threat in terms of ganking and split pushing. No, twisted fate is not unplayable like the title says. He's not even slightly UP like champions such as trundle or ezreal (who, by the way, still get picked lots).[/quote]

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS]Actually...Trundle is an amazing champ. Rainmain's Trundle owned Wickd's Irelia...If you've watched Wickd on Irelia you know that's an amazing feat. Trundle is just underutilized and not played to the best of his ability. If that's not convincing enough Irelia is considered one of the best solo laners in the game whereas as Trundle is considered some sort of mediocre jungler. Rainman laned with a "mediocre jungler" and beat out the ~#1 solo laner being played by "the best Irelia" player in Europe, maybe the world. Ezreal+Soraka was bot lane picked for Millennium against TSM if I re-call. He owned them hard with no issues. Balance by your definition would mean that all champs not considered "usual" picks for high ELO games are balanced all other champs are OP with champs being banned considered the most OP. Or that is how I read into what you're saying. I just have a certain feeling about the change, you have another. Perfectly fine by me, I think he was overly nerfed, but my opinion shouldn't stop people who enjoy TF from playing him. It's just an opinion and a based one at that XD.[/quote]