@phey it depends a lot on your jungler's starting route. If you're purple side and your jungler starts red, sure you can go ahead and do golems. 'cept if he starts blue, you are left without any exp advantage, same goes for other lanes. blue side bot lane can take golems no matter what their jungler starts. Thought it was obvious but Iguess not
You can play more passive knowing the enemies have the advantage, but it's still a big advantage that is given to one of the two sides for no good reason.
And yes, purple side top laners can take the wraith camp (with some help of the mid laner, preferably) and gain an advantage over the enemy, but not many top laners can abuse that to a point where they automatically win lane upon hitting level 2. Not only do they face a generally more tanky opponent, they also have to cc and deal damage alone while in bot lane you can combine the cc and burst of what you're playing on one of the two enemies.
It's not a matter of people not "exercising their heads", it's a stupid advantage that has been given to one side for no reason. I can't even begin to understand why you'd want it to stay, I can only guess you haven't played against enough bot lanes who have abused it correctly.
And yes, purple side top laners can take the wraith camp (with some help of the mid laner, preferably) and gain an advantage over the enemy, but not many top laners can abuse that to a point where they automatically win lane upon hitting level 2. Not only do they face a generally more tanky opponent, they also have to cc and deal damage alone while in bot lane you can combine the cc and burst of what you're playing on one of the two enemies.
It's not a matter of people not "exercising their heads", it's a stupid advantage that has been given to one side for no reason. I can't even begin to understand why you'd want it to stay, I can only guess you haven't played against enough bot lanes who have abused it correctly.
Your only way of "countering" a lane that got golems first is letting them push and likely missing CS in the process? so you're just going to zone yourself out even more in the long run?
Look man, I've never had trouble with a top laner who took wraiths, or golems, I've never had trouble with a mid laner who took shared exp with thier jungler on wolves, I have had trouble with a bot lane that gets level 2 on their third creep then flash stuns me, or something of the sort.
you're talking about something that gives a tremendous advantage to a lane that can shift power through a few CS, when you have the level's advantage over an ADC, and you zone them out properly, it will feel like they don't even do real damage, even if they have that BT, because they'll be 2 levels below you.
Golems provide even more than just that though. If you push your wave, and have lifesteal, you can go to the bush by golems, have your support leashe, and just auto the big one indefinitely to heal because it will keep resetting. This is much more of a factor earlier in the game when life steal doesn't heal much, and as such being able to attack something without being hit and without killing it is a good tool to have.
Before you discuss a topic, think about it before you call people lazy and stupid for not thinking it through, because believe me they have, and believe me it's a freaking stupid lane advantage.
Look man, I've never had trouble with a top laner who took wraiths, or golems, I've never had trouble with a mid laner who took shared exp with thier jungler on wolves, I have had trouble with a bot lane that gets level 2 on their third creep then flash stuns me, or something of the sort.
you're talking about something that gives a tremendous advantage to a lane that can shift power through a few CS, when you have the level's advantage over an ADC, and you zone them out properly, it will feel like they don't even do real damage, even if they have that BT, because they'll be 2 levels below you.
Golems provide even more than just that though. If you push your wave, and have lifesteal, you can go to the bush by golems, have your support leashe, and just auto the big one indefinitely to heal because it will keep resetting. This is much more of a factor earlier in the game when life steal doesn't heal much, and as such being able to attack something without being hit and without killing it is a good tool to have.
Before you discuss a topic, think about it before you call people lazy and stupid for not thinking it through, because believe me they have, and believe me it's a freaking stupid lane advantage.
Ban out GoodPlays GG
i'll repeat myself: it's stupid if you allow it. to me it's still a matter of people not wanting to adapt and, instead, players require a change of the rules or the playboard.
nothing prevents you to play your "toplaner" in botlane, nor the duo in midlane, etc. if a purple duo simply decides to rush botlane (and the bruiser rush top) they are already breaking the simmetry i explained in my 1st post. it's your choice, your problem. not the unfair advantge of someone else.
edit: taking wolves gives you the same xp. jungler can get wraiths start, then red/blue and be lvl2 at around the same time. again, if you break map symmetry with lanes, should you insist on playing symmetrically?
nothing prevents you to play your "toplaner" in botlane, nor the duo in midlane, etc. if a purple duo simply decides to rush botlane (and the bruiser rush top) they are already breaking the simmetry i explained in my 1st post. it's your choice, your problem. not the unfair advantge of someone else.
edit: taking wolves gives you the same xp. jungler can get wraiths start, then red/blue and be lvl2 at around the same time. again, if you break map symmetry with lanes, should you insist on playing symmetrically?
The problem is that the map is not rotationally symmetrical. Dragon is at the bottom half. If you send ADC/support top, blue side still gets dragon pressure. Right now the best way to mitigate this is as follows, assuming blue goes with the "standard meta" lane setup:
Top: Blue bruiser, purple bruiser
Mid: Blue mid, purple ADC/support
Bot: Blue ADC/support, purple mid
This way purple side ADC/support can take wraiths just as often as, if not more frequently than, blue side getting to do golems, both mids have similar access to blue buff, both sides have dragon presence, and both duo lanes get to start with a jungle camp before helping the jungler do a smiteless buff and not miss minions.
You can even argue that this setup makes purple side stronger, as their top gets access to golems whereas blue side doesn't, their ADC/support lane is harder to gank due to mid being short, and their botlane can tower farm while the blue side botlane is constantly overextended forever. The map asymmetry issue can be solved with creativity, not whining to riot about "blue side OP".
Top: Blue bruiser, purple bruiser
Mid: Blue mid, purple ADC/support
Bot: Blue ADC/support, purple mid
This way purple side ADC/support can take wraiths just as often as, if not more frequently than, blue side getting to do golems, both mids have similar access to blue buff, both sides have dragon presence, and both duo lanes get to start with a jungle camp before helping the jungler do a smiteless buff and not miss minions.
You can even argue that this setup makes purple side stronger, as their top gets access to golems whereas blue side doesn't, their ADC/support lane is harder to gank due to mid being short, and their botlane can tower farm while the blue side botlane is constantly overextended forever. The map asymmetry issue can be solved with creativity, not whining to riot about "blue side OP".
So, you're going to take the enemy advantage, and make it even larger by lane swapping into a 2v1 lane?
You do know that golems aren't the reason 2v1 lanes exist right?
Also, taking wolves takes longer than taking golems and you won't make it to lane at the time of the minions, effectively making it pointless because you're zoned out of exp.
The problem with running a 2v1 lane is people in solo Q aren't particularly skilled at the tower rush down meta.
The point of a 2v1 lane is to push down towers as fast as possible and get map pressure by pushing down the the turret in a lane favorable to you. Junglers tend to focus on either pushing down the 2v1 lanes turret or protecting it.
it's not about golem control, and never was about golem control. It was about map pressure and towers.
The reason ADC/support go bot isn't even because of golems but for Dragon pressure. ADCs tend to have the fastest clear on dragon and It tends to be that if you send your ADC/Support top, just for golems, you lose a massive control on dragon, which is much stronger than golems, if you didn't already know.
It's not about finding a way around it, It's simply a fact that golems give blue side a tremendous lane advantage which turns into a huge dragon advantage and eventually huge map advantage. Doing wolves will cause you to arrive in lane late, and most junglers take the wolf camp and share it with mid because mid tends to miss a CS or two for extended leashes. The only time you could take wolves is if the jungler started red, or you were in a premade. The only time you can take golems is always because the junglers tend not to start golems > red.
Golems are more accessible to the solo lanes, allow you to get to lane at the same time as minions, provide an easy life steal source, and eventually turn into a dragon advantage if played properly. If you opt for the 2v1 lane you're basically giving your control away, if you stay in lane you're basically giving the enemy laner a major lead. You can't rightly say that Golems are OK just because you think people need to take wolves, or go 2v1 lane, which isn't even the reason you do a 2v1 lane in the first place.
You do know that golems aren't the reason 2v1 lanes exist right?
Also, taking wolves takes longer than taking golems and you won't make it to lane at the time of the minions, effectively making it pointless because you're zoned out of exp.
The problem with running a 2v1 lane is people in solo Q aren't particularly skilled at the tower rush down meta.
The point of a 2v1 lane is to push down towers as fast as possible and get map pressure by pushing down the the turret in a lane favorable to you. Junglers tend to focus on either pushing down the 2v1 lanes turret or protecting it.
it's not about golem control, and never was about golem control. It was about map pressure and towers.
The reason ADC/support go bot isn't even because of golems but for Dragon pressure. ADCs tend to have the fastest clear on dragon and It tends to be that if you send your ADC/Support top, just for golems, you lose a massive control on dragon, which is much stronger than golems, if you didn't already know.
It's not about finding a way around it, It's simply a fact that golems give blue side a tremendous lane advantage which turns into a huge dragon advantage and eventually huge map advantage. Doing wolves will cause you to arrive in lane late, and most junglers take the wolf camp and share it with mid because mid tends to miss a CS or two for extended leashes. The only time you could take wolves is if the jungler started red, or you were in a premade. The only time you can take golems is always because the junglers tend not to start golems > red.
Golems are more accessible to the solo lanes, allow you to get to lane at the same time as minions, provide an easy life steal source, and eventually turn into a dragon advantage if played properly. If you opt for the 2v1 lane you're basically giving your control away, if you stay in lane you're basically giving the enemy laner a major lead. You can't rightly say that Golems are OK just because you think people need to take wolves, or go 2v1 lane, which isn't even the reason you do a 2v1 lane in the first place.
Ban out GoodPlays GG
Shuru wrote:
So, you're going to take the enemy advantage, and make it even larger by lane swapping into a 2v1 lane?
You also have your own 2v1 lane with a similar advantage. This should be something you discuss with the team in champion select, because you instantly know you're purple side as soon as it starts.
Shuru wrote:
You do know that golems aren't the reason 2v1 lanes exist right?
Also, taking wolves takes longer than taking golems and you won't make it to lane at the time of the minions, effectively making it pointless because you're zoned out of exp.
What? No it doesn't. I've done this over 60 times with my 5s team and have never missed mid CS.
Shuru wrote:
The problem with running a 2v1 lane is people in solo Q aren't particularly skilled at the tower rush down meta.
A valid point, but the metagame changes over time as more and more people learn about this. "People don't know this yet" is not, IMO, a legitimate counterpoint to a meta-evolving suggestion.
Shuru wrote:
The point of a 2v1 lane is to push down towers as fast as possible and get map pressure by pushing down the the turret in a lane favorable to you. Junglers tend to focus on either pushing down the 2v1 lanes turret or protecting it.
Blue gets pressure on bot turret, purple gets pressure on mid turret. If both go down, purple gets an advantage. I don't see how this is a problem.
Shuru wrote:
it's not about golem control, and never was about golem control. It was about map pressure and towers.
The reason ADC/support go bot isn't even because of golems but for Dragon pressure. ADCs tend to have the fastest clear on dragon and It tends to be that if you send your ADC/Support top, just for golems, you lose a massive control on dragon, which is much stronger than golems, if you didn't already know.
The reason ADC/support go bot isn't even because of golems but for Dragon pressure. ADCs tend to have the fastest clear on dragon and It tends to be that if you send your ADC/Support top, just for golems, you lose a massive control on dragon, which is much stronger than golems, if you didn't already know.
I already mentioned this, did you actually read my post?
Shuru wrote:
It's not about finding a way around it, It's simply a fact that golems give blue side a tremendous lane advantage which turns into a huge dragon advantage and eventually huge map advantage.
I told you exactly how to mitigate this for purple side by not only evening the XP advantage, but also retaining the dragon control.
Shuru wrote:
Golems are more accessible to the solo lanes, allow you to get to lane at the same time as minions, provide an easy life steal source, and eventually turn into a dragon advantage if played properly. If you opt for the 2v1 lane you're basically giving your control away, if you stay in lane you're basically giving the enemy laner a major lead. You can't rightly say that Golems are OK just because you think people need to take wolves, or go 2v1 lane, which isn't even the reason you do a 2v1 lane in the first place.
There is not a single reason to "do a 2v1 lane". I gave a solution, you have not yet provided a valid argument over why it's still bad for purple side.
While I agree with shuru, that bot lane was created for the sake of dragon control. The double golems are pretty good. What's forcing the 2v1 lane meta is that some people are confident enough to go in a 2v1 lane while other are not.
Ex: Team A takes trundle / tryndamere top (2 champions that can't really fight a 2v1 lane)
Team B takes chogath, who can use his skills to farm if anything.
Tho, the double golems is indeed a big problem for bot lanes and I think it should be solved by just upgrading the timer by 10-20 seconds, since no junglers starts there anyway.
So, 2v1 are good only and only if you can make your team to pick a good champion to 2v1 and can make something happen top (kill the tower) wich is pretty hard is solo Q as shuru was saying.
Anyway it's not like golems are a big deal in bronze / silver I'm not running from my bot lane when playing ADc on purple side and I'm gold III, let's be real.
Ex: Team A takes trundle / tryndamere top (2 champions that can't really fight a 2v1 lane)
Team B takes chogath, who can use his skills to farm if anything.
Tho, the double golems is indeed a big problem for bot lanes and I think it should be solved by just upgrading the timer by 10-20 seconds, since no junglers starts there anyway.
So, 2v1 are good only and only if you can make your team to pick a good champion to 2v1 and can make something happen top (kill the tower) wich is pretty hard is solo Q as shuru was saying.
Anyway it's not like golems are a big deal in bronze / silver I'm not running from my bot lane when playing ADc on purple side and I'm gold III, let's be real.
ty xaiolu for the sign :3
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I know that first 'Purple' is supposed to be 'top', but I still lol'd.
@ Pheyniex
How do you "force" a more passive game against, let's say, a
so, you either do something about it or risk losing in champ select? there are duos that can manage it well, with or without gank. besides, i cannot stop stressing that the map doesn't force a duo adc-support to go botlane.
plus, can't some purple toplaners take golems as well? or take wraiths from jungler? are you going to punish teams that cant take wraiths+wolves and get in lane in time to not lose lane xp? doesn't make sense to me make a lesser camp spawn later because noone wants to take measures about it. more sense makes turning river into an absolute mirror line, therefore making blue and wolves spawn always top and wraiths, red and golems always on bot. (this has the edge of setting back laneswaps. also, second idea i give on this matter).
sure, adding a timer on golem spawner takes much less effort and people don't have to exercise their heads.
i'll tell you what u can do against a
you don't pick whatever you want in this game because you feel like it (yes, you might not be as good, but you should try your best to counterplay). otherwise you're just raising the chances of losing due to bad choices.