Vayne

[quote=Khazem]Sure she could probably go crazy and get those 3 hits in for, let's say, 200 damage, but in the same time that Corki/Graves will have hit her for half her health or the Tristana got her low enough to burst her down in a combo or Caitlyn was just kiting her because of her superior range or the enemy Sona just chunked her for more damage than she did in those 3 hits.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]You listed Graves, her direct counter, and Corki, a sustained DPSer when maxing Gatling gun. Direct counters do not invalidate skill orders, you'll lose that lane regardless. If we just take Soraka then your Corki eats the dick when Gatling gun fails against Soraka's armor buff, and/or his Q burst is reversed and we win the trade after 3 shots land. Or we take Alistar or Taric, etc. Caitlyn can win the lane until about level 7-9, at which point Vayne can just full to zero her. Who's to say we don't have the Sona on our team? Fallacious argument is fallacious.[/quote]

[quote=Khazem]I'm just trying to say that Vayne can't just run up to people and attack them 3 times in a row in the laning phase cause she will lose that trade 90% of the times. Those were just random examples.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]She doesn't even lose trades 90% of the time o_O That's why I said the statement was fallacious.[/quote]

[quote=Wayne3100]I still don't think it's as easy as you make it sound Duff. You know I've tried it and I think it's strong, but it's just not always easy to use imo. It requires a very aggressive playstyle, which is something your support has to be aware of as well (which in my case - when playing with friends - is not really a problem but could be troublesome in solo queue) and it's risky because you won't always win the trade (90% seems a bit off though o_o). I personally dislike using it when there's an [[Alistar]] or [[Taric]] on the enemy team that can CC you. I know, you don't just [[Tumble]] in against a [[Taric]] expecting not to be stunned, you use your brain, but it's an example of champs that make it hard to hit an enemy three times in a row. It's possible, but definitely not something which is (or should be) easy to do every 5 seconds or so. I think the last time we discussed you talked about some vids of gameplay you could share, any chance you can do that now? :3[/quote]

[quote=Khazem]Well let me try and put it differently, she loses early game to Caitlyn, Tristana, Corki, Graves and Sivir, all popular picks by the way. I don't see how it could ever be worth it to max W first if you can't afford to get 3 consecutive hits in on any of the above early game unless you're getting a gank because all of these have way more damage in early game trades (bar Tristana who just needs to get her target low enough to burst them down) Wouldn't it be better to max Q first which gives you much more reliable damage in lane and doesn't necessarily require you to overextend just to get 3 hits in? Unless you're ahead from the start (first blood from a level 2 jungle gank for example) it just doesn't make sense to me why you would level W first against above mentioned AD carries when you'll rarely be able to even use the proc.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Solo Queue is meaningless, it's legitimately pointless to even discuss what works or doesn't work in Solo Queue. Anything stupid and basic and easy that can be done by yourself works there, and everything even remotely difficult or team oriented fails there. It's a crawling jungle of retardation, lol. You have to be the entire tam by yourself. Alistar is a great counter to Vayne if Vayne maxes W. I've said this before. Taric's not as bad because you see the stun coming and tumble back and don't really take tooooo much damage from it as a result, generally speaking. Again, direct counters do not illegitimate skilling orders. You just lose when you get counter picked. And let's say I'm maxing Silver bolts, yes? The threat of me even getting my 3rd hit eventually can cause Taric to stun me prematurely and waste his mana bar doing things like that. My style has never been I farm, you farm, jungler comes, reset, do it again. I hate that style, it's boring, and it allows your opponent to get strong when you could be actively doing something about that. Tbh, I prefer what Goose is doing lately with their tanky kill lanes bot. It's just more exciting and oriented on beating shit up and seizing control of lanes (Which is always better) But if we're talking about Vayne, she does have legitimate counters in Lane, but that doesn't mean you skill improperly. When Dragon fight goes down you still want to have damage. When ganks go down you want damage. Silver Bolts is still the best thing to level.[/quote]

[quote=Khazem][quote=DuffTime] Solo Queue is meaningless, it's legitimately pointless to even discuss what works or doesn't work in Solo Queue.[/quote] Doublelift, the only player to actually use Vayne in recent competative play maxes Q first o_o [quote=DuffTime] And let's say I'm maxing Silver bolts, yes? The threat of me even getting my 3rd hit eventually can cause Taric to stun me prematurely and waste his mana bar doing things like that.[/quote] That's the thing though. That 3rd hit and Silver Bolts proc isn't even much of a threat early game, even if you max it first most AD carries do more damage than that early game.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]*Face palm* Double Lift is an AFK farmer. He is content to farm and let his opposition farm. I'm sure he does skill that way. And to be honest, with the new jungle and how often you can get ganked, it probably doesn't play out 100% the way it did before, but in every tournament I have recently seen, the one in China and a few other more recent ones, Silver Bolts was always maxed first. If you've seen a more recent one, let me know which one it was so I can watch it myself and tell you what I think of it. Most carries can burst harder than a bolt proc but they can't out damage it over the course of a lane if you do it properly. And in those lanes, you just drop points into bolts and kill them at level 9 when your damage is too good. (Unless you are being DIRECTLY countered, of course.)[/quote]

[quote=Khazem]AFK farming is exactly what you should do on Vayne though imo (in most cases) just because she can be countered in lane pretty easily. The only exception I can think of when Vayne can actually be agressive enough to make maxing Silver Bolts worth it is when she has an agressive jungler camping bottom lane. It doesn't matter if you let the enemy carry farm as long as you're farming properly. With equal farm Vayne will win the game.[/quote]