Gender and sex, what it means to modern day...

[quote=Meiyjhe]Hello everyone, The QQ thread was discussing the gender issue and I find this discussion a very interesting one. As the discussion was put on hold there I wanted to continue it here. To clarify when we talk about sex, we mean whether the person has XX or XY chromosomes and when we talk about gender we talk about what the person identifies as. As a simple example a transgender woman that was born with XY chromosomes can be considered of the female gender. The discussion of gender in the modern day society usually gets sparked by people that wish that there would be more than two accepted genders. They are firm believers that numerous people cannot be solely men or women and that gender is more like a spectrum rather than anything else. Usually they just want people to acknowledge and respect the gender that they are, although there are also many that demand others to use the right pronouns in front of them even if they never met before. The latter is what most of the opposing party seems to have problems with, them having to adapt to the transgender terminology and being blamed upon when they don't get it right. Although this is what most people have problems with, there are also many that believe everyone should just follow gender roles and identity based on how they were born. Even though I do not know many transgenders, I did my best to do research on the topic as I wanted to understand where they were coming from. So I don't think I am qualified to put down any viable conclusions, but I want to share my opinion anyway as I have put a lot of thought into it: Before I talk about my opinion on gender identity I want to share a bit of gender history. For as long as society has existed, we as people consider actions and products manly or feminine. This worked fine back in the stone age where we needed every biological advantage we could get (men being more athletic and women being emotionally adequate on average). Although this didn't work for everyone, it didn't matter much as it worked for most and that was the most important at that time. Later we started to identify more things with gender, but what your gender would be identified with was completely dependent on the place and time. Some said women cannot be in authority and that the man of the house should get all of it. There are also places where skirts are considered female dress whereas the Scottish men went to war with them. Then something can be said about cooking, cleaning and anything else, but in the end it was the culture that decided what the roles were, not the biology. Nowadays where physical activity is less relevant, that everyone is expected to have some level of emotional understanding and that equality as well as identity are more relevant than ever before, people want to break free from the rules we had set for the longest amount of time. We have the luxury to be who we want to be, but we do not yet have the luxury to be accepted for it. Even though the line between genders already has blurred, there are still things that are considered masculine and things that are considered feminine. Bodybuilding, housekeeping, being a shoulder to lean on, fashion, authority and childcare are all falling in one of the roles one way or the other still whereas they should be accessabel as options for everyone. Although one could potentially argue it works for most people, that most definitely does not mean that it works for everyone. What I am getting at is that I think that most of the transgender "community" goes hand in hand with gender identity. If the rules set by society does not feel right to them it makes sense that they wish to change. Although some rules they might agree with and other rules they don't of the male or female gender, they wish to specify themselves as a gender that is somewhere on the spectrum where they believe they fit. If we would ever reach a point where masculinity and femininity would completely be blurred out, these middle of the spectrum genders would likely seize to exist and all sexes would just live as people; identifying themselves however they feel right without them having to face unnecessary adverse consequences. This would be best for everyone in the end in my personal opinion, but I must admit there is a good chance we will never reach that point. PS: There are also transgenders that were literally born with a sex in their mindset that is not their own. I am aware of this, but this is biologically set and is usually limited to both sexes and not genders. With all that said I am curious what you think. Are you transgender, do you know someone well who is transgender or do you have a personal opinion on the matter, I want to know your thoughts. Thanks for reading if you did and I hope you have a wonderful day :D[/quote]

[quote=Joxuu]Life is short, do whatever makes you feel happy and if that's by changing gender or identifying as something that's not male or female, just do it. Personally I don't give a shit what gender/how you identify yourself. I believe in the standard of 2 genders, male and female. I'm calling it a standard because that's what big majority of the world believe in. Despite me believing in this, like said above, I don't give a shit if someone believes otherwise and identifies as whatever other genders there are, like I'd still invite you over for coffee and shit even if you disagree with me. The problem for me comes if I'm being forced to agree or use different genders than what I believe in. I don't think it's even necessary for someone believing in the idea of having more than 2 genders to force others to go with their beliefs, like you shouldn't need others' assurance. Be what you want to be, you don't need my or anyone else's permission. Regarding society structure and such, you should go with the majority/standard because you can't build a society based on really minor % of the population.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark]I understand a woman wanting to be a man or viceversa. But I do not understand any of this gender fluidity stuff. [quote]Even though the line between genders already has blurred, there are still things that are considered masculine and things that are considered feminine. Bodybuilding, housekeeping, being a shoulder to lean on, fashion, authority and childcare are all falling in one of the roles one way or the other still whereas they should be accessabel as options for everyone. Although one could potentially argue it works for most people, that most definitely does not mean that it works for everyone.[/quote] These are gender stereotypes though. I would think the solution is to get rid of gender stereotypes, not to "create more genders" or say someone is some days a girl and some days a boy depending on what they feel like that day. If I'm on the wrong track feel free to enlighten me.[/quote]

[quote=Lady Amelyne]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCecsVoeJcsXbAra7Sl4mOPw whyyyy[/quote]

[quote=Lasoor][quote]These are gender stereotypes though. I would think the solution is to get rid of gender stereotypes, not to "create more genders" or say someone is some days a girl and some days a boy depending on what they feel like that day. If I'm on the wrong track feel free to enlighten me.[/quote] Scientifically speaking you're not on the wrong track and the only reason this is even a "argument" in the modern day is because how screwed up the culture in 1st world countries is these days. So many millennials(my generation) have far too much time on their hands because their parents spoil them far too much and they spend that time doing BS protests about things that don't matter or about trying to make up new sht instead of just accepting that they don't know what they're talking about. Like "gender equality" protesters. "Ohhh woman get paid less". What kind of BS is this? I wish they got paid less but generally speaking they don't, every factory job I have had in past 3 years has paid me equal to woman despite me doing 2x-3x the work. Which is probably why some places might pay woman less.[/quote]

[quote=Latest Legend][quote=Lady Ameline]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCecsVoeJcsXbAra7Sl4mOPw whyyyy[/quote] I think that's a pretty good initiative in itself, from looking at it for like 5 minutes. The first episode tries to explain homosexuality to children, which I think is a great idea because things like this are important and, as we all know when it comes to sex(uality), poorly covered at school, if at all. Maybe the implementation is not ideal (that cringy intro) but I can't really say from these 5 minutes. [quote=Lasoor]"Ohhh woman get paid less". What kind of BS is this? I wish they got paid less but generally speaking they don't, every factory job I have had in past 3 years has paid me equal to woman despite me doing 2x-3x the work. Which is probably why some places might pay woman less.[/quote]Yeaaaah, let's not go there please, the wage gap discussion is not really relevant to this topic and it's bound to derail this thread big time if we start talking about that. (If you want to discuss this you could create a new thread) Anyway, I'm glad you made this topic Meiyjhe. I'm sort of with Joxuu on this in the sense that I also firmly believe in gender equality (I don't care about what gender someone is, in the sense that I don't see why a certain gender should imply certain behavioral traits). In the same way I think transsexuality (as in someone who was born with the body of gender A to be / feel like being of gender B for whatever time, "changing gender" or however you want to call it in my crappy English vocabulary) is a natural and fine thing. Coming to terms with transsexual "urges" (rip my vocab) is very hard for most people and like with homo/bi/whateversexuality I really respect people willing to face a still pretty hostile culture with these feelings. I also think it's important to refer to people in line with the gender they identify with, because for all I'm concerned people have the gender they identify themselves with. But I'm having trouble with transgenderism. I think it's completely fine for people to act unlike the gender stereotypes of their respective culture (in fact I think those stereotypes are ridiculous and stupid). So if someone has a certain gender and maybe wants to be treated differently because of that, great. But from the perspective of a scout leader trying to help young children develop themselves I find it hard to understand what exactly it is these transgender people are dealing with. Something like homosexuality or transsexuality is easy to understand for me and also easy to explain to children etc., with this I don't know what to explain. It feels to me like transgenderism is some sort of rebellion against the gender stereotypes of our culture. But looking at the internet it seems like transgender people actually feel like this gender fits them like a sexuality does. It's not a choice. But the genders are so abstract and their definitions rely heavily of modern gender (as in sex) stereotypes. It's like they're categorizing people in a way that has not been done before. Then to me it begs the question whether or not that categorization is a form of the science of psychology or a real, very tangible property of a person. I have not been able to find proper resources explaining this yet. Lists [url=http://genderfluidsupport.tumblr.com/gender/]like these[/url] make me very anxious. Should I know all these genders by heart? Should I educate the children on every single one of them so they can find the one that applies to them? What exactly is the merit of finding this? (it's clear that finding and accepting one's sex or sexuality is of great importance to one's life, I don't see how finding your gender really impacts one in the same way). A second thing of this list that makes me anxious are things like: [quote]Verangender: a gender that seems to shift/change the moment it is identified[/quote] [quote]Molligender: a gender that is soft, subtle, and subdued[/quote] [quote]Genderflow: a gender that is fluid between infinite feelings[/quote] [quote]Colorgender: a gender associated with one or more colors and the feelings, hues, emotions, and/or objects associated with that color; may be used like pinkgender, bluegender, yellowgender[/quote] Those descriptions look more like psychological states and/or properties, just behavioral patterns which might indeed be bound to one's personality, but I don't see why this is a gender, and not just a personality trait. It also leaves me to wonder: just what [i]is[/i] a gender? What's the thing that binds all these genders together as one thing? I can understand that for transgender people to talk about such things might seem hard or painful, but I would still be very grateful if someone could explain to me how this all fits together. Because I want to understand it so I can understand the people around me better AND because I actually have a responsibility towards these scouting children to let them develop themselves and if this is an important part of that I should definitely be able to understand and work with it. [size=2]What a post. Too tired to reread for corrections but I hope it's legible as is and I will return tomorrow to reword where necessary.[/size] EDIT: I noticed I'm using sex and gender interchangeably, when I say gender I mean either man or woman up to when I start talking about transgenderism. I hope that doesn't offend anyone.[/quote]

[quote=Lasoor]The issue is people are abusing the supposed "definition" of the word "gender" to make it mean whatever the hell they want instead of its intended cultural purpose. The word "gender" is in no way the same as it used to be. People are being like "okay so this word is about the social and cultural differences lets just make up new genders then". Even though all this crap they're calling genders now just has to do with personality or sexual preference. The issue is at one point the word "Gender" in our culture has been considered a word relating entirely to man or female. However in reality this is an arbitrary word used to talk about multiple different things. So the easiest way to beat all these people being like "I'm colorful gender" or whatever is to no longer use the word and just start using "sex" which is a word they can't touch. Honestly the more I research this issue the more I think of these "multi-gendered" people as just trolls begging for attention. Abusing the fact that the term "gender" can basically mean anything because how arbitrary its definition is even though we're all used to it meaning what "sex" you are. So they're using it however they want to fk with us because they got nothing better to do with they're lives than to annoy everyone around them. Including trying to make the claim that they can enter whatever public bathrooms they want depending on their mood that day...[/quote]

[quote=Lady Amelyne][quote=Latest Legend]I think that's a pretty good initiative in itself, from looking at it for like 5 minutes. The first episode tries to explain homosexuality to children, which I think is a great idea because things like this are important and, as we all know when it comes to sex(uality), poorly covered at school, if at all. Maybe the implementation is not ideal (that cringy intro) but I can't really say from these 5 minutes. [/quote] It's for children aged 3-7. Children of that age range can't tie their own shoelaces and this inbred is flat out preaching misinformation to them, even claiming children shouldn't be viewed as asexual on her other, private channel. [quote]Those descriptions look more like psychological states and/or properties, just behavioral patterns which might indeed be bound to one's personality, but I don't see why this is a gender, and not just a personality trait[/quote] Exactly. There's a word for all that. It's called 'personality' and it's not really related to actual gender. Also, reading through that page you've linked, here's a few gems I found just by skimming through: Glassgender: a gender that is very sensitive and fragile Autigender: a gender that can only be understood in the context of being autistic. Meant for autistic people only. Anogender: a gender that fades in and out but always comes back to the same feeling Anongender: a gender that is unknown to both yourself and others Hydrogender: a gender which shares qualities with water Vocigender: a gender that is weak or hollow Gender is determined by your genitalia and there is absolutely no reason to teach children there are more than two. Anyone who thinks otherwise is impossible for me to take seriously. If you, for example, actually think autism should have its own gender, then you absolutely deserve to be ridiculed. Edits because I'm retarded[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Meiyjhe]To clarify when we talk about sex, we mean whether the person has XX or XY chromosomes and when we talk about gender we talk about what the person identifies as. As a simple example a transgender woman that was born with XY chromosomes can be considered of the female gender.[/quote] Yes, although there's more than just XX and XY chromosomes, both in humans and non-humans. What about that? How do we extrapolate? And how does this relate to gender? [quote=Joxuu]Life is short, do whatever makes you feel happy and if that's by changing gender or identifying as something that's not male or female, just do it. Personally I don't give a shit what gender/how you identify yourself. I believe in the standard of 2 genders, male and female. I'm calling it a standard because that's what big majority of the world believe in. Despite me believing in this, like said above, I don't give a shit if someone believes otherwise and identifies as whatever other genders there are, like I'd still invite you over for coffee and shit even if you disagree with me. The problem for me comes if I'm being forced to agree or use different genders than what I believe in. I don't think it's even necessary for someone believing in the idea of having more than 2 genders to force others to go with their beliefs, like you shouldn't need others' assurance. Be what you want to be, you don't need my or anyone else's permission. Regarding society structure and such, you should go with the majority/standard because you can't build a society based on really minor % of the population.[/quote] While I do not disagree with this attitude per se, I would like to point out that, at this point in time, it's less about "believing" and more about "understanding," just like climate change, for example. [quote=Vapora Dark]I understand a woman wanting to be a man or viceversa. But I do not understand any of this gender fluidity stuff.[/quote] Understand is indeed the proper term here. Acknowledging that there's people who feel a certain way is important, hence I think the word "believe" is misused. What you said here marks a clear difference; we have to attempt to understand these people and what they're feeling, only then we can actually move forward. [quote]Even though the line between genders already has blurred, there are still things that are considered masculine and things that are considered feminine. Bodybuilding, housekeeping, being a shoulder to lean on, fashion, authority and childcare are all falling in one of the roles one way or the other still whereas they should be accessabel as options for everyone. Although one could potentially argue it works for most people, that most definitely does not mean that it works for everyone.[/quote] [quote=Vapora Dark]These are gender stereotypes though. I would think the solution is to get rid of gender stereotypes, not to "create more genders" or say someone is some days a girl and some days a boy depending on what they feel like that day. If I'm on the wrong track feel free to enlighten me.[/quote] You're not entirely wrong, but also not entirely right; this is what people mean with the phrase "gender is a social construct." Gender "stereotypes" and gender itself are intertwined and are almost interchangeable concepts; if we had never defined gender roles, then gender itself would be an entirely alien construct to us. This is also where the difference between sex and gender lies. On the "create more genders" thing: People aren't necessarily creating more genders, they are more like attempting to label things on the spectrum. Think of it as the colour spectrum: There was a time certain colours we now know never existed; there were no names for them. Hell, there's even languages and regions where people named colours that we don't even distinguish as such—coincidentally, the same is going on with gender; certain people, languages, and regions distinguish more than two genders. Now, I am no fan of having to label everything, especially with the weird crap people come up with. We should be working towards eliminating boxes, not creating more of them. [quote=Lasoor][quote]These are gender stereotypes though. I would think the solution is to get rid of gender stereotypes, not to "create more genders" or say someone is some days a girl and some days a boy depending on what they feel like that day. If I'm on the wrong track feel free to enlighten me.[/quote] Scientifically speaking you're not on the wrong track and the only reason this is even a "argument" in the modern day is because how screwed up the culture in 1st world countries is these days. So many millennials(my generation) have far too much time on their hands because their parents spoil them far too much and they spend that time doing BS protests about things that don't matter or about trying to make up new sht instead of just accepting that they don't know what they're talking about. Like "gender equality" protesters. "Ohhh woman get paid less". What kind of BS is this? I wish they got paid less but generally speaking they don't, every factory job I have had in past 3 years has paid me equal to woman despite me doing 2x-3x the work. Which is probably why some places might pay woman less.[/quote] I will put it in bullet points so you may be able to grasp what's going on: [list] [*] You have no idea what the word "scientifically" means, apparently. [*] Culture in 1st-world countries has the ability to evolve and reconstruct itself, because well, they are 1st-world countries (See: Maslow's Pyramid). Also it's a[color=red]n[/color] argument. [*] I really wonder about your date of birth. Also, just because it's [b]“your” generation[/b] doesn't mean that spouting absolute nonsense about people from that generation is okay; kinda falls in line with the “I am not a racist, some of my friends are black.” argument. [*] College kids have been protesting well since the 1960's (See: Vietnam War); it's not anything new. [*] Advances in human psychology is something that does not matter? [*] Seems more like that you're using the “I don't know what they are talking about, therefore they don't know what they're talking about, because then I don't have to invest in understanding it. Yay!” deal. [*] Are you seriously implying that this is the first generation to be spoiled? Because I am fairly certain that it can all be easily put into perspective. [*] I wonder if that last statement is an actual reportable offence on MOBAFire. Probably not, but still, I can't help but wonder. [/list] [quote=Latest Legend]Those descriptions look more like psychological states and/or properties, just behavioral patterns which might indeed be bound to one's personality, but I don't see why this is a gender, and not just a personality trait. It also leaves me to wonder: just what [i]is[/i] a gender? What's the thing that binds all these genders together as one thing?[/quote] There's a lot to go through, but I won't bother to go through all of it—mostly because I'm tired and lazy, not because it may not be worth it—although this part jumped out, for me. Your question is actually something that people have been starting to work on since like the 1950's (something like that): What is gender? I personally view it like this. Note, this may not be accurate at all. [indent][i]If you'd take every single entity in the universe, categorise it according to gender. Like what do we think belongs to women and what belongs to men? Then you, and everyone else, is a combination of all those things; we all have our likes and dislikes. Hence, you'd fall somewhere on a spectrum; it's not boolean logic. You could extend this further by saying that there are things that belong to neither, thus the spectrum gains another dimension.[/i][/indent] Again, I am not saying this is particularly accurate or whatever, but it's a thought process that helped me understand at least the possibility of more than one gender, and how a gender spectrum may look like. Yes, gender is a social construct, as well as a deeply embedded psychological state, but that's just something we have to get used to and start to understand. Kinda like how Pluto is no longer a planet: It isn't, because we used to not have a very strict definition or understanding of what really a planet is; the name even comes from the Greek for "wanderer." The whole situation with gender is kinda similar; we are only now starting to understand it. [quote=Lady Amelyne][quote=Latest Legend]I think that's a pretty good initiative in itself, from looking at it for like 5 minutes. The first episode tries to explain homosexuality to children, which I think is a great idea because things like this are important and, as we all know when it comes to sex(uality), poorly covered at school, if at all. Maybe the implementation is not ideal (that cringy intro) but I can't really say from these 5 minutes. [/quote] It's for children aged 3-7. Children of that age range can't tie their own shoelaces and this inbred is flat out preaching misinformation to them, even claiming children shouldn't be viewed as asexual on her other, private channel.[/quote] You are aware that, even at a very young age, children have a pretty good idea of what sexuality is, right?[/quote]

[quote=Lady Amelyne]Sexuality has nothing to do with loving an individual of either gender. What good does throwing around acronyms like LGBTQ do for them? As a parent, one should, of course, answer honestly when their child comes up with a question regarding sexuality. Otherwise, there is no reason to raise awareness on the subject because it is completely unnecessary.[/quote]