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Gender and sex, what it means to modern day...

Creator: Meiyjhe June 24, 2017 6:59am
The_Nameless_Bard
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I'm going to drop some sources that any of you can look at if you want to find some people talking about some of the things brought up in this thread. This could end up being a really ****ing long post, so just bear with me here.

WTF is this **** about gender anyways


Genderqueer person discussing what that means for them


Gender Dysphoria being discussed by transgender men


and by transgender women

NOTE: I do not necessarily agree with every video these people have ever posted or even everything they say in these videos. However, not every person has the same experiences or thoughts, so I wanted to give more than one view for people to look at. There are views already well discussed here and I'm going to leave those out of this post for brevity's sake.

Also, on the discussion of children, many of them are very aware of things like their own gender or sexuality, even when they are young. While this is not every transgender person's experience, for example, many of them understood and insisted they were the gender they eventually transitioned to at a very young age. I happen to not be one of those people, this is partially due to a complete lack of exposure. A lack of education in general, due to living in a pretty conservative part of the US most of my life, made me completely unaware that people like myself exist. I didn't understand that transgender men existed until I was, maybe, 18 years old, the only narrative I had ever really heard before that point was that of transgender women (and not in a way that did justice to them). That lack of education is part of the reason it took me so long to understand who I am, why puberty was such a struggle for me to get through, and why I've experienced such negative feelings about myself and my body for so much of my life. Sometimes topics like gender and sexuality need to be discussed with children, because, if you don't, no one will or they will only see a narrative that is inaccurate or demonizing.

It's also worth noting that gender roles =/= gender, that's somewhat of a misunderstanding of how these people feel about themselves. I admit, though, that some of these definitions are really vague, odd, and don't seem to mean anything; I don't get some of it myself. I can't explain how these people feel to you, however, because I do not myself know what that feeling is like.

For me, this has nothing to do with gender roles or wanting to do traditionally masculine things. My breasts make me feel disgusted with my body, the concept of carrying a child in the uterus I regularly wish I didn't have is often both terrifying and disgusting to me (this is not true for all transgender men, though, and some of them bear their own children), menstruating causes me to suffer from severe depression and anxiety (in addition to being extremely painful due to a medical condition I suffer from). I struggle with my genitals at times, though I won't go into a lot of detail on that subject for obvious reasons. I have struggled to understand these feelings for a very long time. I've suffered from disordered eating in the past because I was trying to mold my body into a form closer to what I felt was right. I didn't want to be thinner; I wanted my breasts, hips, etc to go away. Gender Dysphoria is a very real thing (not just because it's in the DSM-5 either) and, for most people, it isn't about gender roles at all, which is why they state that gender-nonconforming behavior is not the same thing.
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While I am a firm believer that there are only two genders and I won't be convinced otherwise, I also know for a fact that gender dysphoria is a real thing. Gender fluidity actually has nothing to do with it, though, and actually even contradicts it. What it does is legitimately disrespect transpeople and those suffering from gender dysphoria.

As for the children thing, yes, if my child were to ask me a question about sexuality, I would answer honestly while trying to step on their level, like I said. While I do think sexuality should be talked about, that doesn't mean I am ever going to bring it up to a pre-school child. What the person behind that Youtube channel does is claim that innocence is a social construct and that children should embrace the idea of gender fluidity at such an early age. For example, they (don't even know anymore???) literally go so far as to imply that a boy is queer for 'loving' his male friend (Apparently, everyone is queer?) among other things. And just to avoid misunderstanding: yes, I do know that gender fluidity is unrelated to sexuality, I was just commenting on what the channel is trying to preach.
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It's fairly obvious, yes, that most of you will not listen to anything suggesting something besides a gender binary.

I'm not going to bother to argue with people who refuse to listen to or even consider anything contrary to their own opinions, we all know that's a completely pointless endeavor.

I can, however, provide information for the people who do actually wish to have a real discussion on the matter.
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I mean, the thing I disgree with is gender fluidity. At no point did I invalidate transsexuality and actual disorders like gender dysphoria. I don't really care at this point, but you could actually try to read the rest of my post past the first sentence before lashing out like tat.
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I mean, the thing I disgree with is gender fluidity. At no point did I invalidate transsexuality and actual disorders like gender dysphoria. I don't really care at this point, but you could actually try to read the rest of my post past the first sentence before lashing out like tat.
I did read your entire post, that post wasn't specifically directed at you, it was a general statement regarding multiple people who had made it clear they didn't want to hear anything contrary to what they thought.

Though your post does suggest you think that genderfluidity is the only possibility for a gender that isn't male or female, which is sort of an oversimplification. Genderfluid is one thing people identify as and I can't explain why they feel that way, I'm not them. I can, however, state that non-binary gender identities are not just that. There are some that are much more solidly defined and less hard to understand than genderfluid (such as that ContraPoints video about being genderqueer, where he discusses feeling gender dysphoria about certain things and the possibility of taking estrogen to alleviate it).

Also, identifying as a gender that is neither male nor female is something that is actually possible in non-western cultures as there are cultures that have more than two genders already. One can make statements on the existence of multiple genders within their own culture, citing tradition, but to say there are only two ever is incorrect.
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While it might be true that different cultures view the matter differently, I refuse to believe that something such as this "Magigender: a gender that is mostly gender and the rest is something else" (one of the many genders mentioned on that link LL posted earlier) is anything other than trolling. I mean, I don't, but I honestly would if I didn't know better. Call me conservative or however you want, but I simply can't see how is gender associated with what's inside one's mind/one's current mood or whatever.
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I'm not referring to things like that when I talk about this. I can't speak for those people, I don't understand where they are coming from at all (finding people who really talk about that kinda stuff is difficult), and as long as they don't hurt anyone I just don't care. There are examples, however, of people on places like 4chan actually inventing these things to troll people, so it's worth looking for original sources when talking about that in the first place.

I'm more referring to people like the person I mentioned above than some of the much stranger things I can't really talk about.

I guess, to make what I am asking more clear: if you definitely believe gender dysphoria is a real problem, what about people who identify somewhere in the middle and experience dysphoria because of that?
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to me, you're born a guy, or you're born a girl. You could maybe have a mix of parts if something weird happens or if you have surgery later in life and that's fine.

If you want to go around and act like a girl even though you aren't, or vice versa. go ahead. I won't stop you. But for the love of god don't get mad just because someone doesn't "refer to you with the correct gender pronoun" or some stupid **** like that. When i was younger i didn't get mad at someone on the phone for calling me a girl because my voice was higher then. (and yes that actually happened a couple times)

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No real point in having this kind of discussion here, there's other places to educate yourself if you want too and if you don't nothing I say is going to change that.

Being preached too by a bunch of cisgender people isn't exactly the best way to have a discussion if you labeled yourself any of these other genders.


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Nighthawk wrote:
No real point in having this kind of discussion here, there's other places to educate yourself if you want too and if you don't nothing I say is going to change that.

Being preached too by a bunch of cisgender people isn't exactly the best way to have a discussion if you labeled yourself any of these other genders.
My goal with this thread was to provoke thought and discussion, not to make conclusions and assume that what is said here is the truth. You can always learn something from someone else's point of view and even if you don't, knowing where the argument comes from still holds a lot of value.

It's also worth noting that gender roles =/= gender, that's somewhat of a misunderstanding of how these people feel about themselves. I admit, though, that some of these definitions are really vague, odd, and don't seem to mean anything; I don't get some of it myself. I can't explain how these people feel to you, however, because I do not myself know what that feeling is like.

For me, this has nothing to do with gender roles or wanting to do traditionally masculine things. My breasts make me feel disgusted with my body, the concept of carrying a child in the uterus I regularly wish I didn't have is often both terrifying and disgusting to me (this is not true for all transgender men, though, and some of them bear their own children), menstruating causes me to suffer from severe depression and anxiety (in addition to being extremely painful due to a medical condition I suffer from). I struggle with my genitals at times, though I won't go into a lot of detail on that subject for obvious reasons. I have struggled to understand these feelings for a very long time. I've suffered from disordered eating in the past because I was trying to mold my body into a form closer to what I felt was right. I didn't want to be thinner; I wanted my breasts, hips, etc to go away. Gender Dysphoria is a very real thing (not just because it's in the DSM-5 either) and, for most people, it isn't about gender roles at all, which is why they state that gender-nonconforming behavior is not the same thing.
Yeah, I agree. The way you explain it seems to me more like being transsexual, where the mind literally tells you that the physical body you have is not the way it is supposed to be. This seems much more clear and understandable.

The topic that grinds most people's gears, however, is the gender spectrum. The gender spectrum part of the movement seems to focus on how many masculine and/or feminine features they consider their own and how consistent this amount is. Rather than showing any discomfort with their born sex they usually show more discomfort with how their sex is perceived by others. This makes me believe that the gender spectrum is completely based on the standards of masculinity and femininity within society. If the gender spectrum would spread further across the world, I am certain that the definition of the different genders would become vastly more complicated; not that they are easy to understand right now.

Yes, although there's more than just XX and XY chromosomes, both in humans and non-humans. What about that? How do we extrapolate? And how does this relate to gender?

(...)
With that statement I was defining sex, not gender. Nevertheless you could question how much your body contributes towards your gender. If a person from one of the sexes would have a lot of features from the opposite sex (for example hips or chest), would this person still be recognized as their born sex or would the person immediately land in the middle of the gender spectrum? Does this influence what gender this individual would define themself as? I would say most likely, but I am not certain of course.

Lasoor wrote:
The issue is people are abusing the supposed "definition" of the word "gender" to make it mean whatever the hell they want instead of its intended cultural purpose. The word "gender" is in no way the same as it used to be. People are being like "okay so this word is about the social and cultural differences lets just make up new genders then". Even though all this **** they're calling genders now just has to do with personality or sexual preference. The issue is at one point the word "Gender" in our culture has been considered a word relating entirely to man or female. However in reality this is an arbitrary word used to talk about multiple different things. So the easiest way to beat all these people being like "I'm colorful gender" or whatever is to no longer use the word and just start using "sex" which is a word they can't touch.

Honestly the more I research this issue the more I think of these "multi-gendered" people as just trolls begging for attention. Abusing the fact that the term "gender" can basically mean anything because how arbitrary its definition is even though we're all used to it meaning what "sex" you are. So they're using it however they want to fk with us because they got nothing better to do with they're lives than to annoy everyone around them. Including trying to make the claim that they can enter whatever public bathrooms they want depending on their mood that day...
Definitions of words can change. Levask told me a similar example to me today so I will steal it from him, it was about the word ******. Centuries ago if you would be insulted by the word ******, people would have no idea what you would be offended about; as ****** means a bunch of sticks after all. These days the meaning has completely transformed and almost no one refers to a bunch of sticks when they talk about ******.

The main things that seem to drive the expanding of genders are expectations from people to act as their born sex and that when they do not meet these expectations, they are considered wrong for it. This takes away a lot of value from a person and their self esteem. It is important to know for everyone why their behavior and attitude is different from their sex. Therefore the definition of gender expanded to include people that are not binary in order to make them feel more accepted by themselves as well as others.

It is true that some people want to take advantage of this system in order to excuse bad behavior. Obviously if you are a special snowflake, demand everyone to call you by the right pronouns before they even start talking to you and make people that talk to you watch every word they say about you is basically the same as trying to excuse yourself to be a ****. When people communicate, both parties should take each other in account and it should never be a one way stream. Transgender or not. The people that communicate like this do seem to be the vocal minority however, so I would not recommend assuming that they represent the entire transgender community.

The entire discussion on communicating sexuality and gender to kids is an interesting one. Kids prove to be very understanding of new concepts rather quickly. Having gender and sexuality explained to them early could be beneficial, as they can learn more quickly about who they are if they happen to feel a certain way at that age already. As long as videos like these would only be used as addition to personal growth rather than a replacement for something else, I personally cannot see the harm in a medium like this existing as long as this is done with care, however.

(...)

Those descriptions look more like psychological states and/or properties, just behavioral patterns which might indeed be bound to one's personality, but I don't see why this is a gender, and not just a personality trait. It also leaves me to wonder: just what is a gender? What's the thing that binds all these genders together as one thing?

I can understand that for transgender people to talk about such things might seem hard or painful, but I would still be very grateful if someone could explain to me how this all fits together. Because I want to understand it so I can understand the people around me better AND because I actually have a responsibility towards these scouting children to let them develop themselves and if this is an important part of that I should definitely be able to understand and work with it.
This is a key question that seems quite vague as of now. When the first new gender labels were created, I thought they made sense as it was limited to male, female, neither of those or nicely in the middle. Now there are dozens of genders that do not only define what features each gender has, but also define how consistent they have them. There are no clear rules set and I feel not many people have the ability to define someone else as one of the many genders on the spectrum without asking them beforehand. Having set defined characteristics for each gender in existence would help a lot with the understanding with the gender spectrum and it is a shame not a whole lot exists on it yet.

These are gender stereotypes though. I would think the solution is to get rid of gender stereotypes, not to "create more genders" or say someone is some days a girl and some days a boy depending on what they feel like that day.

If I'm on the wrong track feel free to enlighten me.
These are indeed stereotypes, but getting rid of the stereotypes isn't the solution. Stereotypes are tools used as a simplification to understand the differences between groups people and ironically enough, help accept the differences more easily. For example knowing the stereotype of a culture before visiting it can help give an idea on what to expect and what interactions they might have to deal with. So I wouldn't say that the issue is what the stereotypes are, more so how much we hold on to them. The ability to accept those who are different from what we expect is a very valuable skill and right now that is becoming more relevant than ever before.

Joxuu wrote:
Life is short, do whatever makes you feel happy and if that's by changing gender or identifying as something that's not male or female, just do it. Personally I don't give a **** what gender/how you identify yourself.

(...)

Regarding society structure and such, you should go with the majority/standard because you can't build a society based on really minor % of the population.
I agree honestly. It shouldn't matter how people identify themselves, all that matters is that they can accept themselves and that others do not hold their identity against them. If defining your gender helps with that, then that is absolutely fantastic.

The large changes that the transgender community does suggest are usually beneficial towards equality between men and women too though. Unisex bathrooms, the use of neutral pronouns, the acceptance of altering from the gender stereotype and some other ideas are all things that unify the sexes. It still happens too often imo that men and women alienate each other, claiming that the sexes are completely different and that you have to learn a new language in order to understand them. Whether it is texting, fedora tapping, chivalry or whatever. What I am about to say might be an extreme thought, but I think that helping to unify as much as we can underneath blanket terms and structures instead of having to separate, would help everyone realize much quicker how much we all are alike.
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