My 2 actual working reworks, Ryze and Xin

[quote=Embracing][quote=DuffTime] I think Xin is better than people realize. [/quote] EXPLAIN PLIX (: Just curious on other ppz's thoughts on XZ.[/quote]

[quote=caucheka]he just needs less early game power and more late game power. ie tone down base and tone up scaling.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy][quote=RosePhoenix] [quote=DuffTime] I think Xin is better than people realize. [/quote] EXPLAIN PLIX (: Just curious on other ppz's thoughts on XZ. [/quote] Dat damn OP lvl 2 ganks. They are better than [[rammus]] ganks at lvl 2. But even if you are successfull and start to snowball, you will still deal near to no dmg mid and late. [quote=caucheka] he just needs less early game power and more late game power. ie tone down base and tone up scaling. [/quote] Exactly what I did with the total rework. [quote=Lugignaf] Ult passive. It's what I was hating on. Reading through the Ryze rework fully now, E change is the [b]only[/b] thing I like.(Didn't have time for a good full response earlier) And it's still dropping the damage by way too much. Especially on his [[Rune prison]]. Even if you made these changes, people would still max [[Rune prison]] right after Q because Ryze is sustained magic damage, not burst. The snare lets him attain that and his E is a supplement to it, not a major factor. I also looked through the Xin rework. Again, didn't have time earlier. You need to buff the [[Audacious charge]] base. He is an assassin, not a bruiser. Hell, you could keep the same base while dropping the new AD scaling(which is the best part of this) to 0.5 of your bonus AD. Also, bumping the base damage on his ult up a smidge, about 50 at each level, should put it in good standing. EDIT: More on the Ryze passive change. Let's assume you have 3K mana endgame, a little below average by current standard. We're going to use a full rotation, qrqwqeq, for a total of 660 mana. With the new passive on the ult, we only lose 160 mana until the passive wears off and we lose an extra 500 mana leaving us with a grand total of 1840 mana left. That's another full rotation before we have to base and not including if we use Q every time it's off CD, which we can obviously because, we're Ryze. Lastly, bumping up the range on [[Rune prison]] while not increasing the bounce range of [[Spell flux]] is just weird as the cast range of, now all his skills outranges the bounce of [[Spell flux]] making it really awkward to use in a 1v1 which is where he excels. [/quote] Well, again, most of the thread have said [[ryze]] is already OP and by nerfing the dmg on his utility spells he could get balanced. Also don't forget his ultimate increases his overall damage way more now. If they do that, they can do it. Again, choosing between either damage or cc is the right way to go. This way his dmg output can be controlled. WTF no? He was OP in lvl 1-3 and totally UP even with a 1.0 ratio lategame. Think again about that. Now you want to make the ratio even lower while increasing the base even more? "This mana can't be used to cast spells and will be displayed grey in the HUD." Should fix that problem. I increased it's range so all his spells have the same range. And I think the bouncing range of E is already 675 or more, so it wouldn't be a big problem. This maybe helps him with the higher AP-ratios that he can build more squishy for more damage if he wants. But, I don't think that would happen :P.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=NicknameMy] "This mana can't be used to cast spells and will be displayed grey in the HUD." Should fix that problem. [/quote] You phrased that weird in the original. If you're making it like that, you're more or less giving him a damage amplifier on his ult that scales up in a matter of seconds. While this isn't terrible, you're giving him something he can't use. (Max mana that never refills is really useless) [quote=NicknameMy] I increased it's range so all his spells have the same range. And I think the bouncing range of E is already 675 or more, so it wouldn't be a big problem. [/quote] Believe it or not, it's less than 675. Try it in a custom game yourself with a friend. [quote=NicknameMy] WTF no? He was OP in lvl 1-3 and totally UP even with a 1.0 ratio lategame. Think again about that. Now you want to make the ratio even lower while increasing the base even more?[/quote] ^ That confuses me. Are you responding to my changes to your Xin changes? Explain yourself a bit better and so will I.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]I was talking about your change. AD: 100 Base AD: 112 Actual Xin: 75+112+100=287 My Xin: 50+112+150=312 Your Xin: 75+112+50=237 So, you just nerfed him even more. Not a very wise way. Well, then the splash range gets changed to 700. I just didn't know about that. This is, what this part of the ulti should originally be, a damage ampilifier. Like the old AP on the active, this passive brings back that feeling.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]Still confused. Math to prove my buff. Assume 100 bonus AD Current Aud. Charge at level 18: 230 base, no scaling. Your Aud. Charge Level 18: 170 base, 80 damage from AD. 250 damage total. My Aud. Charge Level 18: 230 base, 50 from AD. 280 damage total. Lastly, where are these numbers coming from? [quote] Actual Xin: 75+112+100=287 My Xin: 50+112+150=312 Your Xin: 75+112+50=237 [/quote] Only time I said 50 was when I was bumping up the base damage on his ult. Where's the 150/100 coming from in yours/current Xin?[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Oh, you meaned his E, not his Q. Sorry, my mistake. Yeah, you could also do that, but I think, his earlygame damage would then be still too high. He maybe is an assasin, but he shouldn't deal pathetic amounts of damage early.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]It's not the early damage that makes him strong, it's the slow. Let's assume you have 2 ranks in it for whatever reason when you're jungling. 25% slow on a champ with, for numbers sake, 365 move speed.(315 is middle ground for speeds and 50 with boots 1 since you're ganking top probably) This brings them down to 274 movespeed(rounded up). Even Anivia with her base 300 movespeed can catch that and apply the stun/slow. Let's go to end game where it's a 40% slow. Assume you're going onto a 315 base MS mage with boots 2(up to now 385) and you use Aud. Charge. Drops them to 231. Again, you're probably going to stick to them and just demolish them. This is kinda normal unless they CC you, which they probably will. Dropping the slow early will make him lose a little bit of power while bringing it up later, say, 10% slow per level, will help him when he really needs to stick to that AD carry which is his problem later game. He can kill the mage with no escapes but not the AD carry with a slow, blink and 2 phantom dancers. You assume his damage is the problem early game because he has CC to keep you there while the top laner does the damage(slow and knock up) but these are really short CC lengths. EDIT: You used the wrong word. 'Pathetic' means 'low amounts' German to English a little tough for you today?[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=Nicknamemy]110 (+0.30 per ability power) (+3% of max mana)[/quote] With a standard~ build, that means that E does 341 damage. With a perfect 5 bounces + 50% AoE damage, you just did 1193 damage to the entire enemy team. Not to mention their lowered MR, and Q's Cooldown meaning you just killed their entire team. You can't give E a mana ratio.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=Lugignaf] It's not the early damage that makes him strong, it's the slow. Let's assume you have 2 ranks in it for whatever reason when you're jungling. 25% slow on a champ with, for numbers sake, 365 move speed.(315 is middle ground for speeds and 50 with boots 1 since you're ganking top probably) This brings them down to 274 movespeed(rounded up). Even Anivia with her base 300 movespeed can catch that and apply the stun/slow. Let's go to end game where it's a 40% slow. Assume you're going onto a 315 base MS mage with boots 2(up to now 385) and you use Aud. Charge. Drops them to 231. Again, you're probably going to stick to them and just demolish them. This is kinda normal unless they CC you, which they probably will. Dropping the slow early will make him lose a little bit of power while bringing it up later, say, 10% slow per level, will help him when he really needs to stick to that AD carry which is his problem later game. He can kill the mage with no escapes but not the AD carry with a slow, blink and 2 phantom dancers. You assume his damage is the problem early game because he has CC to keep you there while the top laner does the damage(slow and knock up) but these are really short CC lengths. EDIT: You used the wrong word. 'Pathetic' means 'low amounts' German to English a little tough for you today? [/quote] 315*25=79 365-79= 286 315*.4=126 385-126=259 Also, he was saying that just because he is an assassin doesn't mean he has to deal no damage early like Akali or Talon. Honestly, all the problems you are talking about are solved by building 4 phantom dancers. Last time i played Xin, i stuck to a late game kassadin because my build was Boots5, Wriggles, 4pd.[/quote]