Ok let's talk about Ryze...

[quote=DuffTime]RoA overrated on singed if you ask me.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=Maserato] The only champ capable of good roa stacking is singed. Fun stuff . But tear catalyst glacial shroud is like his early to mid game holy trinity [/quote] Rammus pulls it off better Imo.[/quote]

[quote=Maserato]I roa stack on singed only in pub stomps .sometimes I don't get roa if playing hard. But I'll have to see rammus.[/quote]

[quote=Dypheus][quote=example1013] Gonna drop some other math here, as well. 20 AP costs 435g. This is the cost of an amp tome. AP quints give 15 AP, which is around 325g worth of AP. There is no base item for SV, so what I'll do is take the extra recipe cost of hextech and assign that to SV. This is a viable method of measuring SV value, because it's the maximum amount that one pays for spell vamp, based on the fact that any of the 330g (recipe cost) of hextech that doesn't go to the spell vamp portion actually means spell vamp is even cheaper than what I'm going with. So 15% spell vamp costs 330g. SV quints give 6% SV, which is around 132g worth of SV. So in other words, SV quints are both much less efficient than AP quints, and much less valuable. I separate the two terms because while SV quints are only worth 132g and AP quints are worth 325g, this just makes the AP quints more cost-effective; it doesn't mean they provide more benefit compared to base item than SV quints. The fact that SV quints provide around 1/3 the base cost of SV, while AP quints provide around 75%, means AP quints are more efficient, because you're getting almost the full value of an item for the slots, compared to only 1/3 the value of an item for the slots. What does this ultimately mean? On an AP champ, even one with mediocre ratios like Kennen, AP is going to provide more value. And as I mentioned before, since SV isn't even worthwhile until you start stacking damage items, even though SV quints may produce more benefit late-game, it's not enough to make up for just how much you're giving up early to take them. And what about Ryze? Well, I have done a few quick-and-dirty calculations for mana quints, and they only come out to 55% the value of the base item. It's a bit more difficult to discuss the net increase in damage gained from them, both because the ratio is completely different (based on the fact that, per-point, mana has a vastly different gold value compared to AP), and because it adds the ability to cast more spells, but I don't think it's too hard to give an educated guess on the subject. I'd say flat mana quints (which is what I've been talking about, no fucking way am I gonna do the math for per-level quints, since that involves checking multiple levels' worth of scaling) are still going to be worth more than SV quints on Ryze, because they provide 112 mana, which is both 9 damage on Q and enough extra mana to cast Q one more time than you would be able to otherwise. But as a final summarization of why you wouldn't want to use SV quints on ryze, I'll say this: if you're not going to rush Hextech, you're not going to use SV quints, because even the entire revolver, despite the fact that the AP is barely used, is still almost as efficient as SV quints. [/quote] Seemed legit. Rep for the effort.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=Maserato] But tear catalyst glacial shroud is like his early to mid game holy trinity [/quote] Why would you buy Tear on Singed? His CDs are terrible and he can't get teh tear fully charged even by endgame.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Lugignaf] Why would you buy Tear on Singed? His CDs are terrible and he can't get teh tear fully charged even by endgame. [/quote] Purrrrty sure he meant Ryze ;p[/quote]

[quote=example1013][quote=Dypheus] [quote=example1013] Gonna drop some other math here, as well. 20 AP costs 435g. This is the cost of an amp tome. AP quints give 15 AP, which is around 325g worth of AP. There is no base item for SV, so what I'll do is take the extra recipe cost of hextech and assign that to SV. This is a viable method of measuring SV value, because it's the maximum amount that one pays for spell vamp, based on the fact that any of the 330g (recipe cost) of hextech that doesn't go to the spell vamp portion actually means spell vamp is even cheaper than what I'm going with. So 15% spell vamp costs 330g. SV quints give 6% SV, which is around 132g worth of SV. So in other words, SV quints are both much less efficient than AP quints, and much less valuable. I separate the two terms because while SV quints are only worth 132g and AP quints are worth 325g, this just makes the AP quints more cost-effective; it doesn't mean they provide more benefit compared to base item than SV quints. The fact that SV quints provide around 1/3 the base cost of SV, while AP quints provide around 75%, means AP quints are more efficient, because you're getting almost the full value of an item for the slots, compared to only 1/3 the value of an item for the slots. What does this ultimately mean? On an AP champ, even one with mediocre ratios like Kennen, AP is going to provide more value. And as I mentioned before, since SV isn't even worthwhile until you start stacking damage items, even though SV quints may produce more benefit late-game, it's not enough to make up for just how much you're giving up early to take them. And what about Ryze? Well, I have done a few quick-and-dirty calculations for mana quints, and they only come out to 55% the value of the base item. It's a bit more difficult to discuss the net increase in damage gained from them, both because the ratio is completely different (based on the fact that, per-point, mana has a vastly different gold value compared to AP), and because it adds the ability to cast more spells, but I don't think it's too hard to give an educated guess on the subject. I'd say flat mana quints (which is what I've been talking about, no fucking way am I gonna do the math for per-level quints, since that involves checking multiple levels' worth of scaling) are still going to be worth more than SV quints on Ryze, because they provide 112 mana, which is both 9 damage on Q and enough extra mana to cast Q one more time than you would be able to otherwise. But as a final summarization of why you wouldn't want to use SV quints on ryze, I'll say this: if you're not going to rush Hextech, you're not going to use SV quints, because even the entire revolver, despite the fact that the AP is barely used, is still almost as efficient as SV quints. [/quote] Seemed legit. Rep for the effort. [/quote] Haha if you want to check the accuracy on my numbers a blogger over at CLG's site by the name of DiffTheEnder did base gold costs for every stat. He got the same numbers as I did (although with the same caveat about the difficulty involved in accurately measuring the gold value of spell vamp), and I actually used his methodology in my calculations (so probably should've given some credit in that first post, oops).[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]Duff so troll :([/quote]

[quote=Maserato][quote=Lugignaf] [quote=Maserato] But tear catalyst glacial shroud is like his early to mid game holy trinity [/quote] Why would you buy Tear on Singed? His CDs are terrible and he can't get teh tear fully charged even by endgame. [/quote] yeah I was talkin bout ryze. Not that stupid.....most of the time. I used to carry games with singed stacking phantom dancers. Go figure. He's just not too item dependent[/quote]