Views: 2245 Should I help my jungler if they are invaded early?
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Maybe. This is an awkward moment for laners for a number of reasons:
-You probably can't clear minion waves quickly, yet
-Even if you can it will probably cause you to burn a lot of resources such as mana, which might make helping awkward
-You may not have access to all your abilities, yet
-Blowing all your abilities to clear a wave may open you up to attack by your lane opponent
-Your lane opponent may move first to support their invading jungler so you have to be careful about getting ambushed on your way to support your jungler
--you may not win the 2 v 2
--you may not win the 2 v 1 (if your jungler dies before you can intervene)
-If you are in a position to help the enemy jungler may be able to quickly escape, which means you get nothing except providing some moral support to your jungler by showing that you are paying attention and will move to help (this is actually worth something to your jungler).
Like most things in League you have to balance out the equation of do I get more than I lose by going to help my jungler?
If the answer is yes then help them
If the answer is no then don't help them
It is kind of the reverse of the situation of a jungler ganking your lane when you are under turret working on last hitting a large minion wave. If the kill is certain then it might be worth losing some minions to the turret, but if the kill is not certain then wave your jungler off.
-If you have your laner shoved into their turret
-If there is an even minion wave sitting in the middle of the lane
-If there is an even minion wave on the enemy side of the map so it will naturally push to you
-And you are reasonably healthy and have sufficient other resources
Those are times that helping your jungler against an early invade are likely to help your team more than hurt your team.
Junglers, you need to factor all this stuff in when considering how to deal with an invade.
If I'm dealing with a
Kha'Zix, Lee Sin, Rengar and I'm going Blue > Wolves > Red I may run around Red and pop the blast cone so those jokers don't have an easy escape. (this is not really efficient pathing, but the damn blast plant spawns so late that you can't ask your Top laner to pop it before they head to lane).
I may opt to go Blue > Red if my champion is really fast at clearing the single target camps.
I may opt to go Blue > Gromp > Wolves > Base if I know I'm against a strong invader and my laners are shoved into their turret.
If there is a bush nearby, pull the camp into the bush or if not then keep your back to a wall that you can Flash over if you need to get out of Dodge quickly.
Invaders are favored in invades because their abilities will not be on cool down while yours will be while you are wearing down a camp.
So,
Laners when you do your map checks keep track of your jungler
Junglers when you do your map checks keep track of your laners
Help each other when it makes sense to do so.
Don't get chapped at a laner or jungler if they aren't in a situation where they can help.
Everyone has their duties on the map and sometimes that means that not moving to help is the right call.
-You probably can't clear minion waves quickly, yet
-Even if you can it will probably cause you to burn a lot of resources such as mana, which might make helping awkward
-You may not have access to all your abilities, yet
-Blowing all your abilities to clear a wave may open you up to attack by your lane opponent
-Your lane opponent may move first to support their invading jungler so you have to be careful about getting ambushed on your way to support your jungler
--you may not win the 2 v 2
--you may not win the 2 v 1 (if your jungler dies before you can intervene)
-If you are in a position to help the enemy jungler may be able to quickly escape, which means you get nothing except providing some moral support to your jungler by showing that you are paying attention and will move to help (this is actually worth something to your jungler).
Like most things in League you have to balance out the equation of do I get more than I lose by going to help my jungler?
If the answer is yes then help them
If the answer is no then don't help them
It is kind of the reverse of the situation of a jungler ganking your lane when you are under turret working on last hitting a large minion wave. If the kill is certain then it might be worth losing some minions to the turret, but if the kill is not certain then wave your jungler off.
-If you have your laner shoved into their turret
-If there is an even minion wave sitting in the middle of the lane
-If there is an even minion wave on the enemy side of the map so it will naturally push to you
-And you are reasonably healthy and have sufficient other resources
Those are times that helping your jungler against an early invade are likely to help your team more than hurt your team.
Junglers, you need to factor all this stuff in when considering how to deal with an invade.
If I'm dealing with a
Kha'Zix, Lee Sin, Rengar and I'm going Blue > Wolves > Red I may run around Red and pop the blast cone so those jokers don't have an easy escape. (this is not really efficient pathing, but the damn blast plant spawns so late that you can't ask your Top laner to pop it before they head to lane).I may opt to go Blue > Red if my champion is really fast at clearing the single target camps.
I may opt to go Blue > Gromp > Wolves > Base if I know I'm against a strong invader and my laners are shoved into their turret.
If there is a bush nearby, pull the camp into the bush or if not then keep your back to a wall that you can
Flash over if you need to get out of Dodge quickly.Invaders are favored in invades because their abilities will not be on cool down while yours will be while you are wearing down a camp.
So,
Laners when you do your map checks keep track of your jungler
Junglers when you do your map checks keep track of your laners
Help each other when it makes sense to do so.
Don't get chapped at a laner or jungler if they aren't in a situation where they can help.
Everyone has their duties on the map and sometimes that means that not moving to help is the right call.
I've seen it happen too many times where you cannot do squat against the fed enemy laner, and he/she just kills both the jungler and you when you try to kill her/him.
Your jungler would be better off helping other lanes get ahead while you play it safe.
I've seen it happen too many times where you cannot do squat against the fed enemy laner, and he/she just kills both the jungler and you when you try to kill her/him.
Your jungler would be better off helping other lanes get ahead while you play it safe.
Agree, if you know your lane is dunzo through your own misplays you should let your jungler know to focus other lanes rather than getting pissed at them about it and just play as safe as possible to get what farm that you can or roam to try and get yourself back in the game.
A jungler might be able to fix your lane when they hit level 6 and have red buff (and preferably are coming out of base after an item purchase). But that is a narrow window and your jungle may have more useful things to do.
It is something you may even have to ask for and possibly ask you Mid laner to help with at the same time.
I wish people would take some time to understand each role. I've seen too many people flame about
1) no ganks from jg
2) x laner didn't help when jg was skirmishing
and the arguments just escalate from there.
Nice post and analysis!
Thanks you taking the time to comment and letting me know you got something out of the post, Mozume. Really appreciate that. :-)
I am a support main and I glance at the map at least once every 10 seconds to track where everyone is. I usually actually switch camera to the jungler and mid around once every 20 seconds too. It's hard for me to mentally keep track of spells/ultimate cooldowns, but I try to do so for at least bot lane and mid lane. If my jungler is in trouble near botlane, I usually rotate to help after pinging my adc. Sometimes we both rotate.
I wish people would take some time to understand each role. I've seen too many people flame about
1) no ganks from jg
2) x laner didn't help when jg was skirmishing
and the arguments just escalate from there.
Map awareness, warding, and understanding of roles and lane/jungle match-ups ARE super important with respect to managing/reacting properly to invades.
E.g. if we take Bot lane as an example, if you have a lane that can push and you have an ADC or support that you trust/have good ability to avoid ganks then pushing makes you an enticing target to the enemy junlger, which means they will probably head to your lane rather than invade your jungler.
If your junlger is on the same page and you are on Blue side they can do Blue > Wolves > Red (unmolesetted thanks to your pushing) and then come over and camp your lane for a bit waiting to countergank.
Tis so sweet when that sort of thing works out.
Regarding warding, I found this analysis of how a jungler can use Ghost Poro to protect themself and their laners super informative.
I haven't used Zombie Ward much, yet. Per Edge's video above he considers them more potent Mid to Late game. I'm a big fan of vision though so I plan to try it out more in the upcoming weeks! And cool on you for warding your opposite buff. Making sure your jungler gets off to a good start is good insurance.
Re actives. I seem to have this odd issue of using my actives well when I only have 1-2 of them or like 6 of them. If I'm at 3-5 active items I struggle a bit with using them appropriately. May just be a practice thing as I rarely have that many active items unless I'm playing support, which I don't do that much these days.
I used to not build any actives and then I added in one item at a time. My builds are usually 3 active items now, and sometimes 4. I think of then as alternative ultimates xD
SUPPORTS SHOULD ALWAYS AT LEAST BUY A CONTROL WARD!
I mean, everyone should, but the support should have some in reserve.
SUPPORTS SHOULD ALWAYS AT LEAST BUY A CONTROL WARD!
I mean, everyone should, but the support should have some in reserve.
Control wards are important. Everyone should be buying them, but you do need to be judicious about when, where, and why are are placing them. E.g. you don't want to drop one in a nearby river bush/tri-bush when you are getting pushed into your turret as it will just be immediately cleared.
Using them to deny vision so your jungler can gank. Using them to deny vision around an objective. Using them to start a fight that you can win because you are ahead or know you have back-up. Using them to sniff out an incoming tower dive, allowing yourself time to walk away are all good reason to drop your 75g investment down.
A control ward is worth
a) ~ 1 siege and 2 melee
b) ~ 3 melee and 1 caster
c) ~ 1 melee and 3 caster
All are possible combinations of minions being pushed towards you, and you can easily get the gold back from CSing, and potentially reset the lane depending on the size of the wave they pushed. Them going to the ward and then autoing the ward four times gives you enough time to at least break even from CS gold.
(Obviously less effective if you are on the riverbush side and even if you're on tribush side this is situational)
A control ward is worth
a) ~ 1 siege and 2 melee
b) ~ 3 melee and 1 caster
c) ~ 1 melee and 3 caster
All are possible combinations of minions being pushed towards you, and you can easily get the gold back from CSing, and potentially reset the lane depending on the size of the wave they pushed. Them going to the ward and then autoing the ward four times gives you enough time to at least break even from CS gold.
(Obviously less effective if you are on the riverbush side and even if you're on tribush side this is situational)
Point about the opportunity cost of taking out a control ward vs the minions you might miss for doing so / using it for a distraction to pick up at least some farm in a tough match-up / situation where are behind. And the kind of thing that I need to think more about.
However, consider that the enemy jungler or mid laner might already be in the bush you are about to ward! (had that happen more times than I care for).
Or if you are vs a
I think one thing that gets lost about warding is do you actually need it? And what is the risk of getting it down? Lots of people (including myself at times) drop wards with no reason and there should be a reason for everything you are doing.
Warding at intersections is also important because that gives you the most vision. You control ward some bushes because it's a frequent path for roams (as well as ganks) and roams are less predictable. If I see midlane missing I ping missing for our mid, (if they haven't yet) and immediately back off a little and ward if we have little vision. If we have vision then I am cautious about a potential gank, but I won't back off. I think ward positioning is important, but sometimes, the timing doesn't have to be perfect. Obviously randomly warding a bush at start of game is kind of weird and without zombie ward it wastes the steal ward. But most of the time, I just ward whenever I want more security in doing whatever it is I'm doing at the time.
Or I just go for a gank instead.
Or I just flash in there and get a Pentakill, who know?