Jimmydoggga 2.0 wrote:
What exactly makes her so terrible in a tanky meta?
She became really bad after the nerfs to the holy trinity of junglers, Eve, Elise and Lee Sin. After the meta shifted further away from champs that have been made subpar, Riot decided not to compensate her enough like they usually do, and we were left with a horribly undertuned champion. Right now, the only niche she has over anything is a 2 second stun. She suffers from the same thing Vayne has, no matter how you build her, she'll be sub par to the other options.
Building her glass cannon is out of the question in the jungle. You don't receive enough gold, you don't deal enough damage to warrant picking her over anything else, and you're squishy after Riot removed her innate tankiness. Spider form is impossible to utilise in teamfight outside of clean-up.
Building her tanky will result in a severe lack of damage compared to other tanks, and the only thing she can help her team out with is a 2s stun which is fairly unexceptional considering what other tanks have to offer. You just become a stun bot.
If you want either of those things, there's much better option available that just do her job so much better. Elise originally was designed to have a kit that was a tad overloaded since she had two forms, but she has been nerfed so that everything she can do is simply at a meh standard. She's sitting on the second lowest winrate in the game right now.
She used to have some other niches. Her percentage damage allowed her to quickly clear camps early and apply early pressure, much like how junglers are doing now, but after nerfing the maximum damage that she can deal to monsters, she clears at a mediocre speed at best and has lost her strong objective control. The width to
Cocoon also made her early ganks very iffy. If you're point blank, enemies can still dodge Cocoon due to its thin width, a bit like the changes to Mundo in season 3 (or 4).There's just no redeeming factor in using her. Use someone else that is better. It's not worth investing time into learning Elise because her maximum potential is the same level as a meta jungler's average ability.
EDIT: Well, no one posted in the time it took for me to type this, so I'll just merge it with my original post...
I want to use this second post to put things into perspective.
I'll refer to this...
And this.
Elise deals an average of 16,203 damage every game, and her most common build includes two pure tank items and four items that assist her damage output whether it is flat AP or magic penetration.
Now, let's look at arguably the biggest soloqueue jungle threat right now,
Sejuani. She deals an average of 14,600 damage every game. Well, that's less than Elise, what am I getting at? Her most frequent core build is a full tank build. She is dealing 2000 less damage on average every game with only her base damages and Enchantment: Cinderhulk. 2000 less damage is a lot, but we have to consider what else is offered by the champion. Sejuani is far tankier, not only due to her innate tankiness but due to the fact she itemises into full defensive stats. This means that she is able to stay in fights longer, ultimately dealing more damage than an Elise would in a fight and also offer much more crowd control for her team. And if you feel like Elise is special because she deals percentage health based damage, whoop-dee-****ing-doo, Just about every single other tank can do that as well in some form or another.Making some comparisons to some other tanks...
Gragas: 15,039 average damage with a six tank item build, alongside offering that highly influential ultimate. Zac: Does more damage than Elise on average with a six defensive item build. He has a bit more utility than Elise at an arguably better range and it comes out faster. Nautilus: Is played more in the support role so I feel this is a fairly unfair comparison, but he deals much less damage than Elise with a typical tanky support build, but has a better gap closer, a much more reliable and guaranteed lock down ability and a permaslow.I don't really want to use much more of your time (or mine for that matter), so I'll link to the statistics of some champions in the jungler space that have a mage role.
Fiddlemysticks
...and that's actually about it, because all other AP champions that jungle have a much more popular role in another lane.
But as you can see,
Elise is undertuned. What she offers is incredibly small compared to what other champions can do that she does as well. Why would you burden yourself and your team to play such a sub par, borderline useless champion when you can play one that's much better and offers more, increasing your chances of winning?
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Imma 'bout to end this man's whole career My rather unimpressive and slowly growing anime list! Currently watching:
Nisekoi: False Love |
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HiFromBuddha wrote:
She became really bad after the nerfs to the holy trinity of junglers, Eve, Elise and Lee Sin. After the meta shifted further away from champs that have been made subpar, Riot decided not to compensate her enough like they usually do, and we were left with a horribly undertuned champion. Right now, the only niche she has over anything is a 2 second stun. She suffers from the same thing Vayne has, no matter how you build her, she'll be sub par to the other options.
Building her glass cannon is out of the question in the jungle. You don't receive enough gold, you don't deal enough damage to warrant picking her over anything else, and you're squishy after Riot removed her innate tankiness. Spider form is impossible to utilise in teamfight outside of clean-up.
Building her tanky will result in a severe lack of damage compared to other tanks, and the only thing she can help her team out with is a 2s stun which is fairly unexceptional considering what other tanks have to offer. You just become a stun bot.
If you want either of those things, there's much better option available that just do her job so much better. Elise originally was designed to have a kit that was a tad overloaded since she had two forms, but she has been nerfed so that everything she can do is simply at a meh standard. She's sitting on the second lowest winrate in the game right now.
She used to have some other niches. Her percentage damage allowed her to quickly clear camps early and apply early pressure, much like how junglers are doing now, but after nerfing the maximum damage that she can deal to monsters, she clears at a mediocre speed at best and has lost her strong objective control. The width to
Cocoon also made her early ganks very iffy. If you're point blank, enemies can still dodge Cocoon due to its thin width, a bit like the changes to Mundo in season 3 (or 4).There's just no redeeming factor in using her. Use someone else that is better. It's not worth investing time into learning Elise because her maximum potential is the same level as a meta jungler's average ability.
EDIT: Well, no one posted in the time it took for me to type this, so I'll just merge it with my original post...
I want to use this second post to put things into perspective.
I'll refer to this...
And this.
Elise deals an average of 16,203 damage every game, and her most common build includes two pure tank items and four items that assist her damage output whether it is flat AP or magic penetration.
Now, let's look at arguably the biggest soloqueue jungle threat right now,
Sejuani. She deals an average of 14,600 damage every game. Well, that's less than Elise, what am I getting at? Her most frequent core build is a full tank build. She is dealing 2000 less damage on average every game with only her base damages and Enchantment: Cinderhulk. 2000 less damage is a lot, but we have to consider what else is offered by the champion. Sejuani is far tankier, not only due to her innate tankiness but due to the fact she itemises into full defensive stats. This means that she is able to stay in fights longer, ultimately dealing more damage than an Elise would in a fight and also offer much more crowd control for her team. And if you feel like Elise is special because she deals percentage health based damage, whoop-dee-****ing-doo, Just about every single other tank can do that as well in some form or another.Making some comparisons to some other tanks...
Gragas: 15,039 average damage with a six tank item build, alongside offering that highly influential ultimate. Zac: Does more damage than Elise on average with a six defensive item build. He has a bit more utility than Elise at an arguably better range and it comes out faster. Nautilus: Is played more in the support role so I feel this is a fairly unfair comparison, but he deals much less damage than Elise with a typical tanky support build, but has a better gap closer, a much more reliable and guaranteed lock down ability and a permaslow.I don't really want to use much more of your time (or mine for that matter), so I'll link to the statistics of some champions in the jungler space that have a mage role.
Fiddlemysticks
...and that's actually about it, because all other AP champions that jungle have a much more popular role in another lane.
But as you can see,
Elise is undertuned. What she offers is incredibly small compared to what other champions can do that she does as well. Why would you burden yourself and your team to play such a sub par, borderline useless champion when you can play one that's much better and offers more, increasing your chances of winning?So will riot ever buff her like they did ashe?
RamenChef wrote:
So will riot ever buff her like they did ashe?
She's currently not slated for a rework like
Ashe, but them doing some touch ups here and there is very much possible. I theorise that once they get the tank meta under control, Riot will gauge the power of junglers again and see which ones need love. Elise is one of them. The only issue with buffing Elise is that when she was strong in season 4, she was very oppressive to play against. She had good clears which allowed for effective, deadly early objective pressure and ganks. Due to the nature of having so many things, she can either have very unexceptional traits, or have all her traits be incredibly strong. There's nothing that Riot can do to accentuate her niche other than Cocoon, which has already restricted her to a stun bot. So whether she'll be buffed or not is a definitive... maybe.A rework is plausible, but is not in the works.
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Imma 'bout to end this man's whole career My rather unimpressive and slowly growing anime list! Currently watching:
Nisekoi: False Love |
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Before they nerfed Elise she was practically instaban so I don't see why they would rework her. If they buffed her it would mess with the meta a lot because her % based abiliTIES would kill tanks really fast.
And her oppressiveness is countered by the fact that she is really challenging to get used to at any ELO.
And her oppressiveness is countered by the fact that she is really challenging to get used to at any ELO.
Basically MOBAFire.
Jimmydoggga 2.0 wrote:
Before they nerfed Elise she was practically instaban so I don't see why they would rework her. If they buffed her it would mess with the meta a lot because her % based abiliTIES would kill tanks really fast.
They actually need to rework her to be able to put her in a balanced state because her mechanics are too overwhelming to balance correctly.
If the numbers are correct, her mechanics will make her OP.
If her numbers are downtuned, they'll be too weak to make up for her mechanics.
Same was with the old kassadin. Either broken or useless.
I've been playing as a Blood Moon Elise and even though she struggles in this meta, if you use her right- she can certainly be just as good. I don't try to focus on kills as Elise ... she's an Assassin and I play as one which revolves around ruining the other team's chance of winning.
First as an Elise player, you need to gank early. Like, lvl 2 early. Her Spider Form is quite beefy enough to take on most enemies and if your ally / laner is good enough to deal damage, there's an early kill right there. But what I like to do is steal the other jungler's beasts. How can they farm if i'm taking their red's and blue's? Ward, kill the things, leave one of the red / blue minions alive so that way the blue / red beast itself won't respawn on their side.
Next I either take out the dragon (cause Elise can solo it at lvl 6-7 if built right) but I usually wait to leap in with Rappel and use Smite, THEN flash out with my team praising the steal. Elise isn't meant to be an ADC jungler or solo people. She's a team player, and relies heavily on allies to get the job done. Sure as a jungler, you don't want to rely so much on players but Elise is a great ganker and excellent harasser of stealing kills / beasts / dragons / baron. Oh yes, she is the easiest champion to risk such methods and get out of, since she has 3 counters (Rappel, Web, and Flash if you've selected it as an additional spell).
Most importantly, Elise saves lives. Did you know a spell can be blocked by one of her minion spiders? Whenever my team is getting chased down, I use Web then Spider Form. If they try an ult or try hurting my team, my Spider Form + minion spiders block their way. 80% of the time, it's certainly blocked. Elise is a unique character who isn't meant to tank. Sure she can use the help (and it's not a good idea playing her in this meta because of Riot loving tanks over assassins) but she is still very useful if played right.
First as an Elise player, you need to gank early. Like, lvl 2 early. Her Spider Form is quite beefy enough to take on most enemies and if your ally / laner is good enough to deal damage, there's an early kill right there. But what I like to do is steal the other jungler's beasts. How can they farm if i'm taking their red's and blue's? Ward, kill the things, leave one of the red / blue minions alive so that way the blue / red beast itself won't respawn on their side.
Next I either take out the dragon (cause Elise can solo it at lvl 6-7 if built right) but I usually wait to leap in with Rappel and use Smite, THEN flash out with my team praising the steal. Elise isn't meant to be an ADC jungler or solo people. She's a team player, and relies heavily on allies to get the job done. Sure as a jungler, you don't want to rely so much on players but Elise is a great ganker and excellent harasser of stealing kills / beasts / dragons / baron. Oh yes, she is the easiest champion to risk such methods and get out of, since she has 3 counters (Rappel, Web, and Flash if you've selected it as an additional spell).
Most importantly, Elise saves lives. Did you know a spell can be blocked by one of her minion spiders? Whenever my team is getting chased down, I use Web then Spider Form. If they try an ult or try hurting my team, my Spider Form + minion spiders block their way. 80% of the time, it's certainly blocked. Elise is a unique character who isn't meant to tank. Sure she can use the help (and it's not a good idea playing her in this meta because of Riot loving tanks over assassins) but she is still very useful if played right.
Never give up on your Champion ... always keep trying.
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