Some Constructive Criticism Por Favor

[quote=VexRoth]I have a couple of ranked replays that I hope some kindly Mobafirians might take a look at a let me know what they think. This one is a game that we won pretty handily but it took a lot longer than I think it should have. [url=http://www.replay.gg/search/na/VexRoth#2109831376]Ekko Jungle[/url] The second is a game that I think was winnable but it resulted in a loss. What I could I have done better to have that D into a V? [url=http://www.replay.gg/search/na/VexRoth#2109620086]Gragas Jungle[/url] Mods would there be a better place to put this than General Discussion? I looked for a Replay Review section but it doesn't look like such a thing exists.[/quote]

[quote=Jpikachu1999]Ekko Game ------------ {Edit: Since you spent so much time top lane, you probably could have either given [[Jayce]] the Rift Herald buff, or just simply helped him push the lane. That way, he could roam and you could have more control of mid and bot (thus, more control of dragon)} 8 minutes in after killing [[Leona]], you should've helped bot shove the lane then do dragon. [[Lissandra]] had mid covered, [[Wukong]] was busy doing his second clear, and you had everything else pretty well warded. First dragon is a fairly substantial buff, and it would have been a quicker snowball for your team. You didn't pick up your first dragon until 16 minutes in - you could have been on your second dragon by then. I know [[Jayce]] was struggling early game, but [[Lissandra]] was doing well. After picking off [[Teemo]] and [[Wukong]] a few times, taking Rift Herald would have been ideal. [[Lissandra]] could use that to snowball more and help get tower pushes going so she could roam more easily. Especially once you guys took bot turret, then grouping and pushing with Rift Herald is a great way to get early towers and snowballing. Your first baron was at 42 minutes into the game. Your team aced them at 29 minutes. That would have been a perfect time to clear wards from baron and take it. You and [[Corki]] were fed, and [[Braum]] could have tanked it pretty easily. Dragon wasn't a terrible call, but Baron would have snowballed you guys to a much earlier victory. Besides, Dragon is easier to take down and can probably be soloed by [[Jayce]] or [[Corki]]. You waited until they all respawned to do Dragon. While not terrible, as you got it without any problems, you lost any chance to put pressure on the map. 34 minutes in you guys took their mid inhib. Excellent. Then you all split off. Not so good. Fortunately, [[Ezreal]] and [[Lulu]] chased [[Lissandra]] all the way to southern blue buff. 3 of them are still down, and you guys are fed. Do a 3 man baron with [[Corki]] and [[Jayce]]. They started it, but [[Corki]] tanked too much. If you went straight to baron, then you could have easily tanked it for them and gotten it for free. After your first baron, you should definitely have set up a splitpush. [[Corki]] or [[Jayce]] could have gone bot while the rest went top. They had to deal with super minions mid lane, and they were in no position to defend against a 4-man push with anything less than 4 guys. They would have had to send someone to deal with supers mid and the splitpushing bot, so you could have taken advantage of that. You came extremely close to losing after they nearly aced you after your second baron. If they would have pushed forward, they probably could have taken the nexus. Fortunately, they backed off, but it would have been close. A 10k gold lead is a lot, but not when everyone nearly as full builds anyway. Your team this game was kind of strange. You did a great job of grouping, but then you would get a kill or two and back off. You guys spent a lot of time waiting around for teamfights, when some splitpushing would have put more pressure on the map. Being so far ahead let you win teamfights pretty easily, but your team was not really a teamfighting composition. They were far more suited to splitpushing or picking off a couple of people before fights started. Otherwise, it looks like it went pretty well. I don't know how good tanky [[Ekko]] jungle is, especially when you were snowballing that hard, but it seemed to work. You had good vision control and a lot of excellent teamfights. It just seemed like you, and your team, were focused on playing it safe and farming instead of more aggressively taking objectives. I'll take a look at the other game when I have the chance. I also apologize if any of that came out harshly. I don't feel the need to point out what you did well (which you had a lot of good plays and decisions), just the stuff you could have worked on.[/quote]

[quote=Joxuu]I watched the [[gragas]] game: You should start with Q as [[gragas]] because it offers superior clear speed. Throw first Q 1:36 before jungle camp has spawned so you can get 2nd Q off in the same camp for fast clear speed. Then level up W. I also think you should have gone krugs > red instead of krugs > raptors. You're giving [[warwick]] extra time to farm for 6 by delaying camps. You also lost plenty of hp there. You checked mid lane for a early gank in 3:10 but it didn't produce results. I think you could have forced [[twisted fate]] [[flash]] out if you followed through that play but you ended up wasting time in mid. Early ganks are really risky and you need to produce results to not fall behind enemy jungler. You gank TF for the second time and trade [[flash]] with [[twisted fate]]. I think it's a OK trade because [[anivia]] would have needed to recall and miss lot's of xp but the thing is this should have been done with the 1st attempt. It's 3:50 and you have taken 3 jungle camps. Credits for clearing all camps efficiently after the gank though. Good pink ward purchase after recalling but I don't like [[hunter's potion]] on [[gragas]]. I guess it's optional though. Good catch on the TF thanks to the pink ward at 6:45. Gank in 7:55 is a mistake from your part. You use ultimate to shove [[cho'gath]] away from turret but the better plan here would have been to walk up to cho'gath, start with Q slow so [[darius]] can catch up. Then use [[body slam]] either to shove [[cho'gath]] to [[darius]] or catch up to him if he used [[flash]]. After [[cho'gath]] has used [[flash]], you use [[explosive casket]] to close the distance. Now the enemy top laner could just escape easily because you had nothing left to catch up to him. Always save either [[body slam]] or [[explosive casket]] when they use their escape abilities. The tower dive after is just a bad decision and execution by [[darius]] but you could have gone 1-1 if you used Q + W first before trying to get your E off. It took too long to position for a [[body slam]]. 10:00 is a bad rotation. I would have started with Krugs where I also would have had the distance to go help bot lane. You had to make a walk of shame in 10:20. Gank to mid in 10:40 is a good idea but you make the mistake of starting the gank with ultimate again. You could have just used [[body slam]] to catch [[twisted fate]]. Second blue buff is taken in 11:10 which has been up for minutes. I would plan ganks/rotations ahead so you can take buffs almost instantly as they spawn. Of course unexpected things happen and sometimes it's worth to take the chance and gank a lane before taking buff but generally buffs should't be up for several minutes. blue also should have gone to mid lane who is 2-0 already. 12:15 you could have saved ultimate there. It was pretty free even if you used Q only. You always had the ultimate up if [[warwick]] tried to escape with [[flash]]. 13:20 is [[kalista]] going too aggressive but you could have fixed the situation by using [[body slam]] + [[flash]]. This combo gives enemy lane no time to react. You have used [[flash]] + [[body slam]] a few times where you could have gone [[body slam]] + [[flash]]. It's also late point to gank bot lane. Bot lane needed help before that so you could have communicated them to not push that hard and buy a pink for a gank out of vision. As things are bot lane will most likely be useless for team fights but I'll see how things progress. 15:40 is a waste of time. You should have rotated towards red buff instead of gromp. You would have been in the team fight at 16:00 if you had rotated to your red buff instead of gromp. 17:45 I don't think you needed to use [[body slam]] to guarantee the kills. You could have survived there and won the trade. 20:00 fight is out of position as you can see several enemy champions closing towards you. You should have given up on the scuttle. Third blue in 22:00 should have also gone to [[anivia]] who is the most fed guy on your team. 23:20 you're too late to the party. 28:20 you could have saved your [[flash]] here (I got stuff to do so I fast forwarded the rest) Overall you are often too late in team fights. You need to be more involved in fights rather than getting jungle camps. Try to work on your positioning too. You died few times where you're just too deep trying to contest something or you're at your back lines full hp as a tank when your team is being initiated on. Try to work on [[explosive casket]] usage and overall saving resources for when they're needed. Few [[flash]]es and ultimates could have been saved for other purposes. The best combo for [[gragas]] is [[body slam]] then while in animation use [[flash]] on a target and then [[explosive casket]] a carry to your team. Also try to get each lane something. I wouldn't trust the entire game to a single guy in lower elos. See which lanes will be impactful for later on like I wouldn't spend too much time getting allied [[maokai]] top ahead if I have [[vayne]] bot and [[leblanc]] mid for example. Communicate your ganks with lanes and balance gank/farm ratio while keeping in mind the efficient jungle strategy of clearing all camps in a side. Good example of a efficient jungle clear is raptors > red > Krugs > bot lane gank > recall[/quote]

[quote=Ekki][quote=Joxuu]I also think you should have gone krugs > red instead of krugs > raptors. You're giving [[warwick]] extra time to farm for 6 by delaying camps. You also lost plenty of hp there.[/quote]Actually Krugs ([[smite]]); Raptors; Red ([[smite]]) is a good route if you want to gank at level 3 with decent hp (especially as [[gragas]], who can easily clear raptors). Sure, you don't get the ward clear buff, but at that point in the game you can gamble on lack of wards. Plus you can gank either mid or bot so it's a +1 for versatility. IDK about mana issues of that path though. I haven't seen the gameplay, but I wanted to point that out.[/quote]

[quote=Joxuu]Going raptors second is a waste of time as you walk between camps. [[gragas]] has enough sustain to do red > raptors and still gank after but level 3 ganks don't usually lead to anything and most junglers don't want to risk it because you're giving enemy jungler control of the other side of jungle.[/quote]

[quote=Ekki]I guess if [[gragas]] has such good sustain by first clear I agree it's better going red second then smite on raptors. Still, the krugs-raptors-red path gives better sustain, even if you backtrack a little bit (pants are dragon did the math some time ago, can't find the vid but he keeps doing this for most champs). It's optimal if you plan to gank at level 3 and don't want to get focused and die, but you can also do it if you end up too low on a full jungle clear to level 4 and don't want to risk dying in a random encounter with the enemy. Ganking on level 3 is indeed risky, but the jungle pressure in low elos is marginal and [[gragas]] can pull off that level 3 gank if the enemy is still level 2.[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth]Thank you so much Jpikachu1999, Joxuu, and Ekki! Really appreciate the feedback. No problem with the tone Jpikachu. I know I need some help to step up my game and from what i can see yours was constructive. This is going to take me a while to digest. But it looks like a wealth of things to consider. ;-) [quote=Joxuu]Going raptors second is a waste of time as you walk between camps. [[gragas]] has enough sustain to do red > raptors and still gank after but level 3 ganks don't usually lead to anything and most junglers don't want to risk it because you're giving enemy jungler control of the other side of jungle.[/quote] It is a route I picked up from watching Valkrin as a way of dealing with potential invades. Drop a ward at Red, go do Raptors, watch the ward and ping my laners if their jungler shows in the bush. If they actually move to collapse I will go in to hold their attention. It has actually netted me a number of kills or allowed me to evade invaders. Finish Red and then look for a gank or potentially continue farming. I really do have laners pinging for assistance before I've even finished my first buff in some games. Which is really not an encouraging sign. But tis the hand I am dealt, so.... that is one of the reasons I try to gank early, also the enemy team may not have wards down by that point if they aren't diligent or expecting a quick gank. Joxuu, do you have particular criteria for ganking at level 3 vs finishing a full jungle clear? I try to mitigate some of the danger to my opposite jungle by having my Top or Bot laners word my buff early. But honestly I have 1 game out 10 where my team actually takes up jungle positions and wards appropriately to stymie invades. And that doesn't necessarily help if you are forced to back after ganking at level 3 since the wards your laners have placed (if they placed them) will have timed out by then.[/quote]

[quote=Ekki][quote=VexRoth]Drop a ward at Red, go do Raptors, watch the ward and ping my laners if their jungler shows in the bush.[/quote]I'll start doing this right now. Sounds like a good idea. My current jungle gameplay pattern is predicting which lane will have the hardest pre-3 laning phase and gank them at level 3 if they are pushed. If I can't I just keep clearing the rest of that side of my jungle or ganking the closest lane until something interesting happens (something always happens). I recognise this is harder in lower elos, since the counters aren't so hard there, but you can also factor in the toxicity (i.e. how likely it is that this champion will go afk if they have a bad start) for example. It's also less probable that some champions will invade your jungle, especially if the early gank leaves you with high hp and you can go take blue right after it. In the end, it's just risk assessment. How good is your champion at different clear paths; how good is your enemy jungler at level 3 ganks; how likely it is that the gank fails or you get invaded; how likely it is that one lane feeds if they're not properly babysitted. Be fast to change your mindset if this playstyle is not working for you, or you'll lose lots of games for the reasons Joxuu said.[/quote]

[quote=Joxuu]I would consider a level 3 gank if you can guarantee a significant lead (getting kill or forcing recall in a bad spot) and your mid laner can snowball his tits off from the gank. This also assumes you are left with enough health to continue to contest pressure vs other jungler. This is just me though. My jungling style is built around efficient rotating, focusing on saving as much time as possible between jungle camps. If I want to gank top, I clear the jungle camps and then gank when there is nothing left to be taken. For example: wolves > blue > Gromp > gank or if I want to gank mid lane, I go from Gromp > blue > Wolves > gank. Ekki had a point which I didn't consider however. Now that I take it into consideration too, lower elo junglers probably don't know how to punish a level 3 gank so if you find yourself getting away with it and you can make level 3 ganks work, go for it.[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth][quote=Joxuu] I would consider a level 3 gank if you can guarantee a significant lead (getting kill or forcing recall in a bad spot) and your mid laner can snowball his tits off from the gank. This also assumes you are left with enough health to continue to contest pressure vs other jungler.[/quote] I've roughly been gauging it around how mobile their mid laner is. If immobile and I have CC, I will try to go for an early gank. If say [[Leblanc]] I will generally leave it alone. [quote=Joxuu] This is just me though. My jungling style is built around efficient rotating, focusing on saving as much time as possible between jungle camps. If I want to gank top, I clear the jungle camps and then gank when there is nothing left to be taken. For example: wolves > blue > Gromp > gank or if I want to gank mid lane, I go from Gromp > blue > Wolves > gank. [/quote] You mentioned Raptors > Red > Krugs > Gank Bot. Is that a route you actually do frequently? Do you get a leash? [quote=Joxuu] Ekki had a point which I didn't consider however. Now that I take it into consideration too, lower elo junglers probably don't know how to punish a level 3 gank so if you find yourself getting away with it and you can make level 3 ganks work, go for it.[/quote] Some do. Some don't. I tend to gauge the danger based on the enemy jungler's clear speed. [[Nidalee]], [[Graves]], [[Shyvana]], [[Dr. Mundo]] (if he is healthy enough when he notices your gank) can wipe out an entire half of your jungle in short order. Positive notes based around this discussion and feedback. 1. I've been asking my laners to watch my jungle entrances at the start of the game. In 2 out of 2 instances they actually did it! So I will continue to ask for this service. Ranked games. We won both of them. (this came about from me thinking through how to avoid having one half of your jungle completely exposed and watching a video of White Crow playing Shaco. They asked him if he needed a leash and he said no, just cover) 2. While not perfected yet, I have been going [[Body Slam]] + [[Flash]] and maybe + [[Explosive Cask]] depending on the situation and it seems to be working better for me. My duo partner complimented me on my use of [[Explosive Cask]] in my last game last night. I see the benefit in that your target has no ability to react while they are knocked back/stunned by Body Slam, so they are going where you place them with Explosive Cask. 3. Sometimes I just use my barrels to slow. I mean I did that before, but now I'm more conscious of it like you mentioned with respect to the [[Cho'Gath]] gank. Sometimes you need your damage/extra CC to catch up and you have this barrel thing that slows people whether or not it does maximum damage.[/quote]