Gender and sex, what it means to modern day...

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=jhoijhoi][quote=GrandmasterD]For example, consider a person with CAIS; their sex would be male, but their appearance suggests female, and I think that treating them as male would be very confusing for almost everyone involved.[/quote] This is my issue. [i]Why[/i] is there a difference between treating a person as a "male" or a "female"?[/quote] You tell me. I know that we have established gender roles at some point, and I know that we effectively constructed gender. That being said, it's an interesting--from a scientific point of view--question to see whether having a concept of gender is beneficial at all to us as a species--gender roles themselves have both benefits and drawbacks--whether or not other creatures have such a concept--perhaps whales and dolphins, as they do have a concept of "self"--and whether gender as a construct can exist without gender roles, or any kind of difference in treatment between genders and/or sexes. That being said, I'd personally also be happier if we can just be people, rather than having to adhere to a big set of boxes; I personally do not want anything to do with the whole LGBT community, because I hate the whole "us vs. them" mentality it seems to bring forth. [quote=Nighthawk]It's actually not mine or anyone else's job to educate you in order to have you accept my opinion. I also view it as a waste of time.[/quote] An absolute backwards stance on the subject, as well as a major part of the problem we are all dealing with; education is for sure someone's job, and wishing to be understood by people, but refusing to put time and effort into helping them understand is a complete contradiction. Also, I never stated I do not accept your opinion; I simply stated that I disapprove of your attitude on the subject. [quote=Nighthawk]Especially when multiple have flat out stated their opinions are correct and if you think otherwise you're wrong. It's especially hilarious when people treat this as such a minor topic. To you, yeah I'm sure it is.[/quote] I mean, welcome to the world of the human psyche? This is how human beings respond when their world view is threatened. Also, yeah, people dismiss it as a minor topic, but everyone knows that it's not, otherwise they wouldn't make such a big deal out of it; it may be a very new topic, but it's fairly earth shattering. [quote=Nighthawk]To people who identify out of their social norms, to be expected to just calmly be told that they should just accept that no matter how they change their appearance, or no matter how many times they say that they aren't what they look like, or put in all of that effort in order to go about that, just to be told that they are wrong and don't know what's best for them or that if they "freak out" over being told they're lying to themselves, is ridiculous. Society in general is ridiculous, but telling someone who's trans that their entire outlook on life is wrong and they're lying to themselves is like telling someone named Steve that their name is actually Nick and if they think otherwise they're an idiot. Does that seem like a silly comparison? Sure! Because society doesn't place the same weight on names as we, for whatever reason, place on gender or sex. And because different people have different dislikes. There are people who really don't give a shit what you call them, and there are people who correct you every time you misspell their name. Invalidating one because of the other isn't fair to either.[/quote] True, and no, the comparison is very legitimate. Society simply does not place the same weight on it because names are a familiar concept, and gender is not, at least in most Western societies. It's a phase people have to go through, just like when other scientific facts were introduced that challenged people's world view. [quote=Nighthawk]I'm also quite aware that seeing both sides of the argument is a valid one and I actually appear on a podcast weekly to try and help more people debate properly and understand each side rather than slinging mud and losing focus of the issue at hand. It's a little harder to do over an internet forum, however.[/quote] If you would be so kind to point us in the direction of that podcast, and perhaps share a bit more information on it, then that would be swell. [quote=Nighthawk]And Trans people have been shown to have physical bodies more akin to their "preferred gender" from birth.[/quote] Do you happen to have a link to papers or studies or something that show this? I'm interested in that, personally. [quote=Vapora Dark]For the record I understand the subject better now, and seeing how the definition of [url=https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender]"gender"[/url] differs from "sex", I understand why some people would want to label themselves differently to just male or female (of which my definition previously was "dick or vagina", referring to sex). In their place I would find it very unnecessary, as RottedApples does, but I understand that not everyone cares about the same things, as Nighthawk said.[/quote] It's a first step, and that's good; everyone around here should be happy about this. For the record, I do understand what you, and people with a similar attitude, have to go through as well, for I had to do the same thing. [quote=Vapora Dark]Gender's a made up concept anyway, no harm in making up more genders.[/quote] True, but be wary of sounding dismissive; many people see the whole "gender is a social construct" thing as a reason to dismiss it, because it would mean that "gender isn't real." which is wrong. Not trying to twist your words here, just bringing it up; after all, numbers are a made-up concept--an abstract construct--as well.[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard][quote=RottedApples]This is my main problem with how some people are trying to treat and argue this. I treat that in between with a generic label. I have no problem with people who exists in between or want to exist in between but please stop making ammunition for memes. You just make yourself look stupid and it makes it harder for me to take anything seriously. Also don't get offended by memes, they are just memes. I laugh at jokes about crippling depression despite my current state mentally. Also on a personal note I myself am a guy, I know this. This is a fact. I do sometimes wish I was a girl, I like wearing panties sometimes because it's a fetish I have and I get off on this. I also have used a dildo before and enjoyed the experience, which does partially, mostly, play into why I sometimes want to be a girl (but it's also because I want to look like a cute grill) and I'm bisexual. Yet I won't take any actions such as surgery to complete this goal and I have no problems being a guy because that's what I am and I'm fine with it. I wasn't born as a girl so trying to become one I feel would be a rough and unfulfilling experience physically, mentally, and socially. But I don't go around identifying myself as some weird thing because I want to. I just keep living my life, hanging out doing whatever having a good time. Gender is something I hardly ever worry about. And for as much as it is so important and iconic in our lives being something that affects daily routine, it hardly matters to me and I do somewhat struggle to grasp why it matters so much, to the extent that people will flip out if they are "misgendered", to other people. I feel like you have to have something wrong with you mentally to be so concerned over something that in the grand scheme of things is so minor.[/quote]The point I'm making, personally, is that it's very likely these less well-defined phrases will fall out of use in time. It really shouldn't make any difference in the long term, so why bother getting mad at people. You're welcome to feel however you want about your own gender. If you don't really have a desire to put in the effort to become female, that's fine (transitioning in the states is pretty shitty unless you have really good insurance anyways). If you don't feel dysphoria about your body despite a possible desire to be more feminine, that's also fine and I'm happy for you because dysphoria fucking blows. I don't think you should redefine yourself unless you want to. However, the reason being misgendered is difficult is something that's probably hard to understand if you don't experience dysphoria about your body, voice, and other details of your existence. Imagine for a moment that the male aspects of yourself completely disgust you, but changing what you're called allows you to forget this for just a second. You go by a different name and try to assert yourself to people, politely even, and people innocently forget, never read the reminder you gave them to avoid this issue entirely, or maybe they even do it on purpose because they think that's reasonable, and it's a constant reminder of the body, the voice, etc that you hate but are forced to survive in. I don't get angry about people misgendering me; it just depresses the hell out of me because I literally am unable to access the things that would allow me to do anything about it. I'm doing the best I can to make this easy for people, to the point of constantly outing myself to strangers I play TTRPGS with online beforehand and sending friendly reminders when they make mistakes because I know they don't mean anything by it. I simply want to be able to avoid the disgust I feel for a moment, I just want to feel like myself instead of this female meat suit I'm forced to live in day to day. I've got enough facial hair now (silver lining of PCOS, I suppose) to mostly confuse people with my appearance. It's my speaking voice that betrays me now; I didn't used to hate it so much, you know. I constantly worry someone will have a bad reaction when I interact with new people on the internet. It hasn't happened yet, but given the vitriol people will react with in certain spaces, I have every reason to be afraid. [quote=Latest Legend]I'll respond in more detail later (after I've found the time to check out the things Nameless linked), but now that the word science has come up I have a follow-up question: is gender related to sex or is it not? Because if we start talking about X and Y chromosomes we're in the sex department I suppose.[/quote]Gender is related to sex in that most people equate them because for them there is no difference. Also, primary and secondary sex characteristics often cause dysphoria for transgender people (I use this term generically to refer to binary and non-binary trans people for the sake of simplicity). Chromosomes are being discussed because there are people that are, by their sex chromosomes alone, male, but appear female in every other aspect of their existence and even identify as female. To call those people hermaphrodites or to say that intersex people have a "combination of both" is an oversimplification of various intersex conditions, but that is not the topic at hand and I suggest separate research on that topic if you're interested in it. This [url=http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/]article[/url] has a lot of interesting information in it. [quote=Vapora Dark]For the record I understand the subject better now, and seeing how the definition of [url=https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender]"gender"[/url] differs from "sex", I understand why some people would want to label themselves differently to just male or female (of which my definition previously was "dick or vagina", referring to sex). In their place I would find it very unnecessary, as RottedApples does, but I understand that not everyone cares about the same things, as Nighthawk said. Gender's a made up concept anyway, no harm in making up more genders.[/quote]What does it mean to psychologically be male, female, or something else? That's something we can't yet answer and people often don't like philosophical questions that don't have concrete answers.[/quote]

[quote=xXkillercrackXx]I'm just wondering why this is being discussed on a League of legends related website.[/quote]

[quote=Jovy]cuz people wanted to, and it's posted in off-topic, so why not I guess[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk][quote=GrandmasterD][quote=jhoijhoi][quote=GrandmasterD]For example, consider a person with CAIS; their sex would be male, but their appearance suggests female, and I think that treating them as male would be very confusing for almost everyone involved.[/quote] This is my issue. [i]Why[/i] is there a difference between treating a person as a "male" or a "female"?[/quote] You tell me. I know that we have established gender roles at some point, and I know that we effectively constructed gender. That being said, it's an interesting--from a scientific point of view--question to see whether having a concept of gender is beneficial at all to us as a species--gender roles themselves have both benefits and drawbacks--whether or not other creatures have such a concept--perhaps whales and dolphins, as they do have a concept of "self"--and whether gender as a construct can exist without gender roles, or any kind of difference in treatment between genders and/or sexes. That being said, I'd personally also be happier if we can just be people, rather than having to adhere to a big set of boxes; I personally do not want anything to do with the whole LGBT community, because I hate the whole "us vs. them" mentality it seems to bring forth. [quote=Nighthawk]It's actually not mine or anyone else's job to educate you in order to have you accept my opinion. I also view it as a waste of time.[/quote] An absolute backwards stance on the subject, as well as a major part of the problem we are all dealing with; education is for sure someone's job, and wishing to be understood by people, but refusing to put time and effort into helping them understand is a complete contradiction. Also, I never stated I do not accept your opinion; I simply stated that I disapprove of your attitude on the subject. [quote=Nighthawk]Especially when multiple have flat out stated their opinions are correct and if you think otherwise you're wrong. It's especially hilarious when people treat this as such a minor topic. To you, yeah I'm sure it is.[/quote] I mean, welcome to the world of the human psyche? This is how human beings respond when their world view is threatened. Also, yeah, people dismiss it as a minor topic, but everyone knows that it's not, otherwise they wouldn't make such a big deal out of it; it may be a very new topic, but it's fairly earth shattering. [quote=Nighthawk]To people who identify out of their social norms, to be expected to just calmly be told that they should just accept that no matter how they change their appearance, or no matter how many times they say that they aren't what they look like, or put in all of that effort in order to go about that, just to be told that they are wrong and don't know what's best for them or that if they "freak out" over being told they're lying to themselves, is ridiculous. Society in general is ridiculous, but telling someone who's trans that their entire outlook on life is wrong and they're lying to themselves is like telling someone named Steve that their name is actually Nick and if they think otherwise they're an idiot. Does that seem like a silly comparison? Sure! Because society doesn't place the same weight on names as we, for whatever reason, place on gender or sex. And because different people have different dislikes. There are people who really don't give a shit what you call them, and there are people who correct you every time you misspell their name. Invalidating one because of the other isn't fair to either.[/quote] True, and no, the comparison is very legitimate. Society simply does not place the same weight on it because names are a familiar concept, and gender is not, at least in most Western societies. It's a phase people have to go through, just like when other scientific facts were introduced that challenged people's world view. [quote=Nighthawk]I'm also quite aware that seeing both sides of the argument is a valid one and I actually appear on a podcast weekly to try and help more people debate properly and understand each side rather than slinging mud and losing focus of the issue at hand. It's a little harder to do over an internet forum, however.[/quote] If you would be so kind to point us in the direction of that podcast, and perhaps share a bit more information on it, then that would be swell. [quote=Nighthawk]And Trans people have been shown to have physical bodies more akin to their "preferred gender" from birth.[/quote] Do you happen to have a link to papers or studies or something that show this? I'm interested in that, personally. [quote=Vapora Dark]For the record I understand the subject better now, and seeing how the definition of [url=https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender]"gender"[/url] differs from "sex", I understand why some people would want to label themselves differently to just male or female (of which my definition previously was "dick or vagina", referring to sex). In their place I would find it very unnecessary, as RottedApples does, but I understand that not everyone cares about the same things, as Nighthawk said.[/quote] It's a first step, and that's good; everyone around here should be happy about this. For the record, I do understand what you, and people with a similar attitude, have to go through as well, for I had to do the same thing. [quote=Vapora Dark]Gender's a made up concept anyway, no harm in making up more genders.[/quote] True, but be wary of sounding dismissive; many people see the whole "gender is a social construct" thing as a reason to dismiss it, because it would mean that "gender isn't real." which is wrong. Not trying to twist your words here, just bringing it up; after all, numbers are a made-up concept--an abstract construct--as well.[/quote] Sorry, I was using a general you rather than you specifically. From your posts in this thread you at least seem fairly accepting. In addition, I'm well aware it would help to educate people on these things if I wish them to understand and accept them. It's mostly a psychological thing that I currently have no desire to do so. At a certain point it becomes frustrating talking to walls all day and I'd currently rather just not do so. The Podcast is https://battlecryforfreedom.com/ Sources: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564 http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00325-0/fulltext I'm sure there's more out there but this is what I had on hand.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Nighthawk]Sorry, I was using a general you rather than you specifically. From your posts in this thread you at least seem fairly accepting.[/quote] Never have I denied it, but it has been a journey for me too; suddenly learning your partner is transgender, when you never had to deal with the whole gender debate in the first place, sure is quite something. [quote=Nighthawk]In addition, I'm well aware it would help to educate people on these things if I wish them to understand and accept them. It's mostly a psychological thing that I currently have no desire to do so. At a certain point it becomes frustrating talking to walls all day and I'd currently rather just not do so.[/quote] I understand, but if anyone can help others understand this subject, it's the people who deal with it on a daily basis. [quote=Nighthawk]The Podcast is https://battlecryforfreedom.com/ Sources: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564 http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00325-0/fulltext I'm sure there's more out there but this is what I had on hand.[/quote] Thanks. Sources are helpful.[/quote]

[quote=Lasoor]Basically you're all trying to make the world as confusing as that episode where spongebob can't figure out which bathroom to use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZm1FWDKxWM[/quote]

[quote=Thatdudeinthecotton]So, I guess I'm gonna chime in. So I'm pretty accepting of trans people, don't mind what they do or wanna do, their business as far as I'm concerned. However potential laws that are being created around treating them as their chosen gender seem potentially disruptive. I'm not talking about the bathroom thing, though it's a pain to implement Unisex bathrooms don't show increased rapes or whatever. No what concerns me is that there are large amounts of funding given from the government to STEM and Businesses encouraging women to get into the sciences and business respectively. Depending on what area you are going into, being one gender over another can yield very real financial gains. Unlike claiming to be a different biological gender than you actually are, it's far harder to prove you aren't trans. So my question I suppose is, how do you imagine this issue would to be dealt with?[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Lasoor]Basically you're all trying to make the world as confusing as that episode where spongebob can't figure out which bathroom to use.[/quote] You mean Spongebob Squarepants, the person who had a child with a starfish, and never saw anything wrong with being either gender because sea sponges are hermaphrodites? [quote=Thatdudeinthecotton]I'm not talking about the bathroom thing, though it's a pain to implement Unisex bathrooms don't show increased rapes or whatever.[/quote] Not sure what this means, like are you implying that you expected that people being allowed to use the bathroom they feel comfortable with would lead to more rapes? By whom? Who would get raped more, trans people or non-trans people? [quote=Thatdudeinthecotton]No what concerns me is that there are large amounts of funding given from the government to STEM and Businesses encouraging women to get into the sciences and business respectively. Depending on what area you are going into, being one gender over another can yield very real financial gains.[/quote] That does not sound like a problem that has much to do with trans people, unless "regular" positive discrimination is totally, totally fair. It also does not address any issue whatsoever, but I suppose that is out of the scope of this discussion. [quote=Thatdudeinthecotton]Unlike claiming to be a different biological gender than you actually are, it's far harder to prove you aren't trans.[/quote] Well, I suppose you could always require a psychological evaluation.[/quote]

[quote=Thatdudeinthecotton][quote=GrandmasterD]Not sure what this means, like are you implying that you expected that people being allowed to use the bathroom they feel comfortable with would lead to more rapes? By whom? Who would get raped more, trans people or non-trans people?[/quote] NO, I'm not implying that, it's just a really popular argument that I don't agree with. Said argument being that men would take advantage of unisex bathrooms to rape women. However it is statistically shown that that is not the case. I can't believe saying I distinctly believed otherwise would imply that I'd typically think it's true -_- [/quote] [quote=GrandmasterD] That does not sound like a problem that has much to do with trans people, unless "regular" positive discrimination is totally, totally fair. It also does not address any issue whatsoever, but I suppose that is out of the scope of this discussion.[/quote] I'm egalitarian, so I don't care for gender discrimination as is. However it is the way it is atm and as such I figured it was something worth talking about. But whatever I guess. [quote=GrandmasterD]Well, I suppose you could always require a psychological evaluation.[/quote] I pretty much figured the same, though I imagine there would be quite a few offended by the notion since it's somewhat subjective atm.[/quote]