Canoas
<Member>
<Member>
Say what you will about stats, I feel that I would rather get say FoN + Randuin's then get something like Aegis + GA. It's more costly and they provide you with relatively comparable resistances, but...? I just feel more squishy when I have Aegis lol.
GA is not cost effective in durability. That's because it has a passive revive.
Aegis is very cost effective.
Aegis is very cost effective.
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"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts
Canoas wrote:
I think winning dreamhack is a pretty strong argument.
Just because pros play it and win it in dreamhack does NOT mean it's optimal.
CandyPanda on team Xen(?) won a game as Tristana by using this build. Now you may argue that they didn't actually win dreamhack, but CandyPanda only played one game with tristana and he dominated the game. Locodoco, the previously most well-known Tristana player, uses this guide. Now, is Locodoco's opinion suddenly invalid because a different build was used in Dreamhack by a different player? Does CandyPanda's build outshine Locodoco's because he used it to success in a tournament?
Also, if you go to solomid, there's usually only 1 featured build per champ - but what if there's two? Is the pro's way the optimal way, until a second pro comes along and says otherwise? How do we choose between the pros' guides? Do we look at their elo and choose the better pro?
I really don't see how "winning dreamhack" is a valid argument.
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CandyPanda's build and playstyle represents the EU meta game while Locodoco represents the US meta game. That's why. You can't expect for 2 different playstyles to be the same. What is bad to US is good to EU at times. What is good to US is bad to EU. That's how things work since there are 2 different servers with different playstyles. I like it imo.
- Why isn't aegis that good any more?
*It's either their teamfight was extremely lacking, or they didn't have the gold to build her. Supports in Dreamhack just got some Dorans, some HP, MP5 and a splash of AP. Toss in some GP10, then wards wards wards wards wards. Supports don't really have a lot of opportunities to create big ticket items unless their team wins a lot and you pick up a ton of assists!
- Should the support be the only one buying wards?
*Not all the time, but most of the time. Supports are well,supports. Not damage, not tanks, just supports. Although wards will set Supports back in gold a little, GP10 help them out a little and most support's spells are simple and straight forward. Thus, the lack of "AP" items are not needed so much. For example, Janna's tornado will knockup no matter what unless the enemy team has items like Banshees. Soraka's E will always silence, unless the enemy team has items like Banshee's. Things like that!
- Why does the support not need survivability?
*Supports usually have great spells to keep people off them/the team. Also, their positioning in teamfights have to be key. Another point is, if the enemy team somehow dives upon you, USUALLY by the time they get you, the enemy team has also suffered some casualties also.
Edit: Just to let everyone know, I disregarded everything Ya1232 said since the guy is only Level 22 and he's trying to tell everyone they're scrubs and will never be anything. He's not level Level 30 yet lmao. Game has yet to even get 'competitive' for him lawl
- Why isn't aegis that good any more?
*It's either their teamfight was extremely lacking, or they didn't have the gold to build her. Supports in Dreamhack just got some Dorans, some HP, MP5 and a splash of AP. Toss in some GP10, then wards wards wards wards wards. Supports don't really have a lot of opportunities to create big ticket items unless their team wins a lot and you pick up a ton of assists!
- Should the support be the only one buying wards?
*Not all the time, but most of the time. Supports are well,supports. Not damage, not tanks, just supports. Although wards will set Supports back in gold a little, GP10 help them out a little and most support's spells are simple and straight forward. Thus, the lack of "AP" items are not needed so much. For example, Janna's tornado will knockup no matter what unless the enemy team has items like Banshees. Soraka's E will always silence, unless the enemy team has items like Banshee's. Things like that!
- Why does the support not need survivability?
*Supports usually have great spells to keep people off them/the team. Also, their positioning in teamfights have to be key. Another point is, if the enemy team somehow dives upon you, USUALLY by the time they get you, the enemy team has also suffered some casualties also.
Edit: Just to let everyone know, I disregarded everything Ya1232 said since the guy is only Level 22 and he's trying to tell everyone they're scrubs and will never be anything. He's not level Level 30 yet lmao. Game has yet to even get 'competitive' for him lawl
nomad93
<Member>
<Member>
This thread makes me sad. All these people flaming Canoas when he has a good question about the game and how it is play. So what if he asked about how the Pros play? Just by understanding how they play he already improves himself as a player and knowledge of the game to interpret different situations to make a better decisions for himself when the time is needed. No where did he said the Pros are right or any ******** like that you just assumed he meant that. Only thing he did imply was that they are good.
Ya next time read the post then think about it before just instant reply to something so you dont make yourself look like a douche.
tl;dr Canoas post was misinterpreted by people when all he was trying to do is improve his knowledge of game +rep to him :)
The points on this topic are:
- Why isn't aegis that good any more?
- Should the support be the only one buying wards?
- Why does the support not need survivability?
-aegis is still a decent item i only get it on amumu. but only because most tanky champs would benefit alot more from anyother item. support....well idk how support is going to work too much other then Pick, Hog, Philo, wards, boots, last item can be w/e now so aegis or even BV would be the filler.
-warding is done by the whole team but mainly support>jungler>carrys/solo laners. only time when carrys get wards is during the laning phase to prevent a gank by the other team but when a team needs a ward or two dont be surprised to see a carry with 1 or 2 especially if he has extra gold/and or in premade 5s
-support doesn't usually b/c they arent the main focus of the other team. but heavy AoE teams may force an early BV for a support. but supports get BV mid/late game no matter what
/xai the thunder stealer
Ya next time read the post then think about it before just instant reply to something so you dont make yourself look like a douche.
tl;dr Canoas post was misinterpreted by people when all he was trying to do is improve his knowledge of game +rep to him :)
Canoas wrote:
The points on this topic are:
- Why isn't aegis that good any more?
- Should the support be the only one buying wards?
- Why does the support not need survivability?
-aegis is still a decent item i only get it on amumu. but only because most tanky champs would benefit alot more from anyother item. support....well idk how support is going to work too much other then Pick, Hog, Philo, wards, boots, last item can be w/e now so aegis or even BV would be the filler.
-warding is done by the whole team but mainly support>jungler>carrys/solo laners. only time when carrys get wards is during the laning phase to prevent a gank by the other team but when a team needs a ward or two dont be surprised to see a carry with 1 or 2 especially if he has extra gold/and or in premade 5s
-support doesn't usually b/c they arent the main focus of the other team. but heavy AoE teams may force an early BV for a support. but supports get BV mid/late game no matter what
/xai the thunder stealer
Xaioli wrote:
CandyPanda's build and playstyle represents the EU meta game while Locodoco represents the US meta game. That's why. You can't expect for 2 different playstyles to be the same. What is bad to US is good to EU at times. What is good to US is bad to EU. That's how things work since there are 2 different servers with different playstyles. I like it imo.
My point was that just because CandyPanda plays Tristana one way in dreamhack does not make Locodoco's way invalid. Just because a pro does something does NOT make it optimal.
Oh, and lastly, something I think I remember TheRainMan (?) saying (maybe it was xaioli that said this):
Supports should buy all the wards, junglers should buy wards early on, carries should only buy 1 ward at a time to make sure they ward their lane and prevent ganks.
Click for one of my awesome builds!
Thanks to Mowen, WrATHofVuLK, and AlexanPT for the signatures! Check out Tristana: The Lane Game, Maokai: The Chu8 Way, and Twisted Fate: Card Games!
Canoas
<Member>
<Member>
@Trojan
I already said this but I'll repeat it.
Everyone used the same build with Sona and Janna. Whatever builds they used with tristana or if they differ in champs is completely unrelated to this topic. Every single pro used the same build in dreamhack.
You can argue all you want, it's proven, by experience, that those builds are better.
If you prove, mathematically, that fire is cold you will still be wrong because when I touch fire I'll get burned. The same way that even if you that the builds all the pros used are not optimal you will still be wrong because when used against other builds they were proven to be more effective.
The topic is about the support role, more specifically regarding aegis and warding. Not about if the pros are right or not. If you don't think they are right about these then state your reasons. If you're just going to talk about something completely unrelated to this thread then you are free to create your own.
@Xaioli
Thank you, and +REP, for the first useful post.
So, aegis should still be included in the support builds? If a support is meant to play extremely defensive then an aegis will be a real waste. The aura won't get to the melee champs and if the support is on the back then the extra survivability will be wasted. Also, if the support needs to get gp10 items then aegis will be delayed and will be gotten at the end of mid-game, where it's use has been greatly diminished.
EDIT:
@Trojan
Thanks, that was useful.
I think I'll make my builds significantly cheaper in order to allow for more wards.
I already said this but I'll repeat it.
Everyone used the same build with Sona and Janna. Whatever builds they used with tristana or if they differ in champs is completely unrelated to this topic. Every single pro used the same build in dreamhack.
You can argue all you want, it's proven, by experience, that those builds are better.
If you prove, mathematically, that fire is cold you will still be wrong because when I touch fire I'll get burned. The same way that even if you that the builds all the pros used are not optimal you will still be wrong because when used against other builds they were proven to be more effective.
The topic is about the support role, more specifically regarding aegis and warding. Not about if the pros are right or not. If you don't think they are right about these then state your reasons. If you're just going to talk about something completely unrelated to this thread then you are free to create your own.
@Xaioli
Thank you, and +REP, for the first useful post.
So, aegis should still be included in the support builds? If a support is meant to play extremely defensive then an aegis will be a real waste. The aura won't get to the melee champs and if the support is on the back then the extra survivability will be wasted. Also, if the support needs to get gp10 items then aegis will be delayed and will be gotten at the end of mid-game, where it's use has been greatly diminished.
EDIT:
@Trojan
Thanks, that was useful.
I think I'll make my builds significantly cheaper in order to allow for more wards.
Why's everyone hatin' on Aegis? :(
It's a very strong item.
Xai does have a viable point in that supports need GP10 and wards over it, but if a tank, offtank or a support can pick it up they most definitely should.
Edit: it also doesn't matter if it's mid/lategame. Still worth it.
It's a very strong item.
Xai does have a viable point in that supports need GP10 and wards over it, but if a tank, offtank or a support can pick it up they most definitely should.
Edit: it also doesn't matter if it's mid/lategame. Still worth it.
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On Aegis: It is not as good as it once was.
The item is still incredibly strong. It was super OP before. It's currently THE most cost effective durability item in the game. I think that's pretty good, if anything.