Attack Damage VS. Attack Speed

[quote=Searz]Nice theory crafting you got here. Though I would like to point out that base AD and AS on a carry is approximately 50 and 0.66 Your base values favor AS a lot (AS is worth more because the base AS and AD are really high. AD isn't multiplicative so it doesn't benefit from that) Your graphs should contain [[Infinity Edge]] (and be based off lvl18 stats; 100AD and +50%AS) because it's the single most useful item for boosting your auto attack damage (which AS is only useful for anyway). Also worth noting it that SotD isn't a pure AS item and should NOT be included in the general price of AS.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=TheJohn] Theory and Experience are archenemies. While theory has the strategy and math, experience got action and real time strategy. Getting 3 Phantom Dancers, 1 Starks, 1 Black Cleaver and 1 Bloodthirster for Yi makes him impossible to kill (CC only) and your Thornmail will be useless (I tryed it). But if you do that on Ashe, the result will not be the expected.[/quote] Lawl. You fail.[/quote]

[quote=TheJohn][quote=Searz] [quote=TheJohn] Theory and Experience are archenemies. While theory has the strategy and math, experience got action and real time strategy. Getting 3 Phantom Dancers, 1 Starks, 1 Black Cleaver and 1 Bloodthirster for Yi makes him impossible to kill (CC only) and your Thornmail will be useless (I tryed it). But if you do that on Ashe, the result will not be the expected.[/quote] Lawl. You fail. [/quote] Have you ever tryed it? It's my troll build, but it works (not like something normal, but still does the job).[/quote]

[quote=Fireup6][quote=Searz] Nice theory crafting you got here. Though I would like to point out that base AD and AS on a carry is approximately 50 and 0.66 Your base values favor AS a lot (AS is worth more because the base AS and AD are really high. AD isn't multiplicative so it doesn't benefit from that) Your graphs should contain [[Infinity Edge]] (and be based off lvl18 stats; 100AD and +50%AS) because it's the single most useful item for boosting your auto attack damage (which AS is only useful for anyway). Also worth noting it that SotD isn't a pure AS item and should NOT be included in the general price of AS. [/quote] I graphed the optimal AD/AS ratio for most relevant champions using their actual base AD and AS at lv 18. http://i.imgur.com/UI8yJ.png Which should theoretically be the most auto-attack damage these champions can do at lv 18 and 12,000 gold worth of items. I've tried getting averages various ways but it's hard when you need to consider items like SoD or Madreds. What i have noticed is that attack speed is consistently cheaper than AD.[/quote]

[quote=Jvstm]Now throw defensive items in the mix! Because your Master Yi ain't shit if he gets two shotted. Perhaps you should try getting a decent mix of AD and AD with defensive items. My core Yi build is Youmuu's, Stark's, IEdge. After that I usually get Frozen Hammer and either BV or Thornmail, depending on who I'm fighting.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Fireup6] I graphed the optimal AD/AS ratio for most relevant champions using their actual base AD and AS at lv 18. http://i.imgur.com/UI8yJ.png Which should theoretically be the most auto-attack damage these champions can do at lv 18 and 12,000 gold worth of items.[/quote] Yea, that's a nice graph, but it would be even better if you included Infinity Edge and only carries in it. I mean, the only champions who spend 12000gold on offensive items are ranged carries anyways. [quote]I've tried getting averages various ways but it's hard when you need to consider items like SoD or Madreds. What i have noticed is that attack speed is consistently cheaper than AD.[/quote] You don't need to consider those items. ONLY consider items that give the stat in question. For AD that's Long Sword, Pickaxe and B.F. Sword. For AS that is Dagger and Recurve bow. Those would net an average of 27gold per %AS[/quote]

[quote=Fireup6][quote=Searz] Yea, that's a nice graph, but it would be even better if you included Infinity Edge and only carries in it. I mean, the only champions who spend 12000gold on offensive items are ranged carries anyways.[/quote] I'll do some stuff with infinity edge on the next series of better graphs i make that will abandon the "average" system. Also, it's interesting to graph everyone as some champs have surprising stats. Like Kassadin who turns out to be hands down the best physical DPS in the game (ignoring skills of course). [quote=Searz]You don't need to consider those items. ONLY consider items that give the stat in question. For AD that's Long Sword, Pickaxe and B.F. Sword. For AS that is Dagger and Recurve bow. Those would net an average of 27gold per %AS [/quote] That's what i originally did and came up with the same averages you did. Those graphs in my OP are doing with a 27g AS average. But the problem with using daggers and long swords as averages is that nobody ever uses those items as one of their 6 late-game items because they simply run out of room. You can only buy so many recursive bows with 12k gold. The lower-tier items such as daggers and long swords (especially godly low-tier Dorans items) are always the best bang for your buck. ESPECIALLY Dorans items. If you could hold an unlimited amount of items, nobody would ever buy any high-tier items like Sword of Divine, Starks, or even IE. It's simply not worth it when you can just buy 30 Dorans blades have have 300AD, 3k health, and 90% lifesteal for 14k. This is actually the reason why you should ALWAYS have 6 items in your inventory. Your inventory slots are very valuable and you should fill up each one as soon as you can, even if it's just with Dorans items or even better a universally useful gold/5 item like philosopher's stone. As the game progresses and you run out of room, you are stuck with lots of gold and are pretty much forced to upgrade your efficient low-tier items for less efficient high-tier items. You see, the graph will take the 27g / %AS average and tell you that with 12k you can get 444% AS. 12k is enough to buy 11 recursive bows which will place you nicely right at %450AS. But you can't do that, you don't have enough room for 11 recursive bows. So if you want to remain a remotely significant factor in the game, you're forced to upgrade your 6 recursive bows to sword of divines, which are less efficient at 32 gold per %AS. Since you won't be running around with 6 Sword of Divines, you'll probably buy a Starks which is a horrendous 63 gold per AS. And thus with these high-tier items that you're forced to buy, the true average is much greater than 27 gold per %AS. To be honest, it's becoming apparent to me that the entire "average" way of doing this is grossly inefficient. And due to there only being a limited amount of items with stats that are all somehow computable, it doesn't make sense not to just do this by just using the actual items themselves in these calculations. Which I'm working on doing right now.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Fireup6] That's what i originally did and came up with the same averages you did. Those graphs in my OP are doing with a 27g AS average.[/quote] Oh, good. [quote]But the problem with using daggers and long swords as averages is that nobody ever uses those items as one of their 6 late-game items because they simply run out of room. You can only buy so many recursive bows with 12k gold.[/quote] But Riot decides item prices from the general value of all the stats they give. So it's still somewhat relevant. [quote]As the game progresses and you run out of room, you are stuck with lots of gold and are pretty much forced to upgrade your efficient low-tier items for less efficient high-tier items.[/quote] Nono, you've got it all wrong. It's the other way around. Long Sword is 41.5g per AD while B.F. Sword is 36.7g per AD. The more expensive the item, the more stats. When you combine items into a big item (take ROA or Randuin for example) you get a bunch of "free" stats to make upgrading more attractive. Doran items are only that cost effective because they sell for less gold than normal items and they don't upgrade. Doran items are simply to enhance your earlygame, nothing else. [quote]To be honest, it's becoming apparent to me that the entire "average" way of doing this is grossly inefficient. And due to there only being a limited amount of items with stats that are all somehow computable, it doesn't make sense not to just do this by just using the actual items themselves in these calculations. Which I'm working on doing right now.[/quote] Yea, that's what I'm doing too. I've got a pretty extensive comparison of carry items. If you'd like I could upload it.[/quote]

[quote=Fireup6][quote=Searz]Nono, you've got it all wrong. It's the other way around. Long Sword is 41.5g per AD while B.F. Sword is 36.7g per AD. The more expensive the item, the more stats. When you combine items into a big item (take ROA or Randuin for example) you get a bunch of "free" stats to make upgrading more attractive. Doran items are only that cost effective because they sell for less gold than normal items and they don't upgrade. Doran items are simply to enhance your earlygame, nothing else. [/quote] B.F. Sword is the same tier as a Long sword is. They're both basic items. Let me try to prove my point. With 12,000 gold, at an average of 27gold per % Attack speed you should theoretically be able to afford 444% attack speed, right? Try it: http://leaguecraft.com/builder/Akali No matter how hard you try, you will never be able to actually get 444% Attack speed with 12,000 gold. Even if you increase the average to 30, it's still impossible to attain 400% Attack Speed with 12,000 gold. Realistically, the cheapest attack speed item that people use in late-game is a Sword of Divine which is 32 gold per AS. (And yes, I'd love to see that comparison :D)[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]You have to consider the champion's own kit. [[Master Yi]] would want lots of attack because [[Highlander]] gives him quite a hefty amount. But since [[Wuju Style]] also gives a small AD boost and [[Double Strike]] gives him an attacking steriod, he also needs a light amount of attack speed too. In my opinion, the best case scenario is to have the "BIG THREE" for late-game: [[Infinity Edge]], [[The Black Cleaver]], [[The Bloodthirster]]. With a [[Phantom Dancer]] for crit and ms. :) This is because, AD is more significant then AS. If we forget that NO ONE can outrun Master Yi. Attack Speed is inferior for the fact that if you only hit them once, they take less damage if you're mainly built on AS. If you're built on AD, each individual hit is more significant and this scales better for potential critical hits as well. To summarize, if you run away after getting hit once with: [[Infinity Edge]], [[The Black Cleaver]], [[The Bloodthirster]]. You'll have taken more damage then if hit with: [[Madred's Bloodrazor]], [[The Black Cleaver]], [[Phantom Dancer]].[/quote]