Who are the "worst" characters? I...

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS]As I said, past the laning phase he (Heimer) really doesn't provide much benefit. What is he going to do in a team fight except die rather quickly? He's solid for siege/defense of a turret with his passive and his turrets but he's slow, has longish cool downs and is completely dependant on kiting to be successful. Team fights don't provide any sort of assured battle ground. It all moves around rather quickly and you're either escaping/dead/chasing. Heimer isn't a mobile champion EVEN though he's meant to kite people around. Or that's how I choose to play him when I'm in the mood. (That mood is extremely rare like winning the lottery) I'll concede that he could be a NICHE pick on a poke team. But he's by far one of the worst champions available. Part of Shaco's game is mental, but that's the way people have had to start playing him. I'm not saying he's amazing, but I feel he's better off than he was...Still not where he used to be but those QoL changes and bug fixes have unlocked some of the possibilities the old shaco never had imo. Or I could be way off....:P[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Kirluu] You are correct, but I was also correct. A Shaco with those items will most likely be a fed Shaco. And if AP Eve ran around with those items. Hell, she would dominate just as much as AP Shaco would. What I'm saying about both of those is; They are good. But not for serious play. It's far too easy to go negative (score-wise). It's easier to keep clean with Shaco because of his amazing mobility skills, but that really is the only thing that sets the two apart. Of course the nerf on Evelynn didn't make things much better (Stun --> Slow). And yes, Shaco is overall viable, we all know that, and his skills in general, not so much the AP ratios, but the skills in general make him good as AP as well. Then again: Unless you're trolling, it isn't a build for ranked play. Shaco can play ranked, while Eve should stay the heck out of there. [/quote] No she wouldn't dominate as hard as AP shaco with those items. I was hinting that you're probably underestimating AP Shaco.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Xenasis] He's not OP, but as I've said - he's practically the same as where he was before. He was overall nerfed from before the "changes", and he got a few usability bug fixes, though honestly no buffs. Saying people are good with him is irrelivant. People being good with a champion doesn't make them any better, it just means people play him well, not to mention the fact that this could be said for any champion, and was true for him before the change. Shaco's the same as he was before the changes. It's all mental. [/quote] Shaco is the same, but he is NOT THE SAME if you know what I mean. I mean you understand the entire jungle was reworked right? And that it now supports ganky and mobile junglers with decent clear speed. Or tanks with support items. Shaco just so happens to be one of the best gankers, and one of the most mobile champions in the game. He can protect his jungle with boxes, and gank lanes, he can counter jungle, he can do EVERYTHING in the new jungle that he was sub par at in the old jungle. He's perma ban for a reason, he's one of the best champions in the game right now. You can't say it's all mental l0l. Current mechanics support his strength as a champion, he brings too much to the lane phase of a team.[/quote]

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS]"Hey look Shaco is running into the bushes LETS CHASE HIM"<<<<<<Not underestimating AP Shaco, that's being a moron.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=Xenasis]Saying people are good with him is irrelivant. People being good with a champion doesn't make them any better, it just means people play him well, not to mention the fact that this could be said for any champion, and was true for him before the change.[/quote] Technically, if a far better player, who is playing shaco, is regularly getting matched with you, it means shaco is bad, because a far better player shouldn't be getting matched with you if he is playing with other people of his skill level.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=DuffTime] Shaco is the same, but he is NOT THE SAME if you know what I mean. I mean you understand the entire jungle was reworked right? And that it now supports ganky and mobile junglers with decent clear speed. Or tanks with support items. Shaco just so happens to be one of the best gankers, and one of the most mobile champions in the game. He can protect his jungle with boxes, and gank lanes, he can counter jungle, he can do EVERYTHING in the new jungle that he was sub par at in the old jungle. He's perma ban for a reason, he's one of the best champions in the game right now. You can't say it's all mental l0l. Current mechanics support his strength as a champion, he brings too much to the lane phase of a team. [/quote] Yes I can say it's mental, because it is. In the new jungle - Speed is good Counter jungling is worse Ganking is worse Mobility is good Bulk (not so much sustain, especially since the health relics are % based) is good Shaco has a great initial speed but is pretty slow after that. He has great mobility though. Needless to say good ganking and counter jungling. He's ALWAYS been one of the best champions in the game. The changes meant people played him more to see the 'new Shaco', and as such, realised his strength. He was first ban first pick before the jungle changes, too. @Tem First time Shaco (or jungler) vs Shaco (or jungling) veteran. The first time Shaco might be good elsewhere, but not as Shaco, for example. I'm sure you have a 'best' role?[/quote]

[quote=Crows foot]Isn't it so that whether a champion is good or not should be judged by how well a pro can do with it? I mean that is the true (or as close as we get) potential of the champ![/quote]

[quote=Rudmed][[Twisted Fate]] He isn't bad, but he isn't exactly good either. There are just people who can do his job a bit better: [[kassadin]], [[brand]], [[ahri]], and [[leblanc]] in the nuke category. He's just super easy to counter, you build health and he can't touch you. As an AD you can pick [[graves]], [[ashe]] etc, and often get better results (of course this assuming they are on equal skill level etc).[/quote]

[quote=Xiron][quote=omagma] Evelyn. /Thread My poor old main /: [/quote] You, Sir, are totally wrong. Evelynn still is fun to play. Well but I didnt play her b4 the nerf so I kinda can't imagine how it was to stun an enemy. But I think alot of ppl cant play her nowadays. Cause they cant hande you can't stun, press Q five times and your enemy's dead. She's a lil bit harder 2 play now...[/quote]

[quote=Fox Rage][quote=Xiron] [quote=omagma] Evelyn. /Thread My poor old main /: [/quote] You, Sir, are totally wrong. Evelynn still is fun to play. Well but I didnt play her b4 the nerf so I kinda can't imagine how it was to stun an enemy. But I think alot of ppl cant play her nowadays. Cause they cant hande you can't stun, press Q five times and your enemy's dead. She's a lil bit harder 2 play now... [/quote] Back when she could stun? It was broken. Just plain broken. I know, I was maining her for that sole reason. She was really broken. Riot nerfed her pretty hard still. They should've buffed her overall stat/skill damage + replace stun for slow. She is UP now. But I still believe removing her stun was a very good thing. She is still playable, but you need to have perfect lane comp in order to stun, extremely good communication to gank properly. Oh, and she suck as AP now. AD/off-tank is much better now. Or even full tank. But not AP.[/quote]