A thought I had about Viktor...

[quote=Katjoesja]The thing with Viktor is that he always gets some AP from his passive, thus allowing him to either get masses of AP early game or build a little more tanky and still have enough AP. I like to go full AP for the said burst potential. My Cloud Of Doom changes teamfights by being able to take out 2 targets (1 with the opening burst, 1 with the lasting effect).[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=albableat] And you are saying that anyone who builds AP can be classed as AP carries? That's just about everyone who has at least two AP ratios... Anyways, read my explanation above. I hope it will makes things clear about what I call an AP carry. [/quote] My argument against that - Ok, let's boil it down to this. In a team fight, [[Brand]], for example, has one full combo then he has to sit out for a good 7 or so seconds (I forgot his cooldowns). He's still a carry, however, as landing that one [[Pyroclasm]] in the middle of the enemy team got them so low you won the team fight. Consistent damage isn't required. Damage when and where it's needed is. LeBlanc can get the hurt down on the most important champion, then start dealing reasonable damage a few seconds after. It's the same story with any champion. If your Veigar has enough burst to one shot anybody on the enemy team, then it instantly turns a team fight into your favour, despite the fact Veigar is notoriously bursty. He has to get far too close to spam his Q, but if he gets enough AP to one shot stuff, the fights turn in your favour, just as if a [[Vayne]] gets enough AD, team fights will go in your favour.[/quote]

[quote=NinjaGinge][quote=Xenasis] The only thing wrong with Viktor is lane control. Sure he has a nice burst, but all one needs to do is play Cass, QW a minion wave to the tower and run away. He can't last hit at the tower because he has no way to clear a wave that easy. [/quote] Once he grabs augment he almost instaclears waves...[/quote]

[quote=albableat][[Brand]]'s damage is pretty consistent. I'm speaking [[pillar of flame]] every ~5-6 seconds (considering blue buff/blue pot/masteries CDR), [[conflagration]] every 4 seconds. And that's a lot of AoE damage. On countrary, [[leblanc]]'s cooldowns may be lower (actually by late game she would have ~3 sec CD on Q and around 7 seconds on [[distortion]] and [[ethereal chains]]), but those spells are mostly SINGLE TARGET damage. It's harder and much less efficient for LB to stay within a teamfight then it is for a Brand as she is just not needed there. After you initially burst someone, it's better to gtfo and wait for spells being ready again to come and clean up after the TF has almost ended. Not saying that LB can't survive TF's and steal deal significant damage... It's just not the best way to exploit [[leblanc]]. If you initially plan on being in TF's a lot, pick someone more suited for that role like [[kennen]] or [[morgana]].[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=NinjaGinge] Once he grabs augment he almost instaclears waves... [/quote] Well that's untrue. He can one shot the caster minions with his E (which, might I add, costs a lot of mana), yes, yet after that, what? Compare him to Galio who can QE, Morde who can E/Q, or Cass who can Q and W. There are countless examples, and he is counterpicked by those champions. If the minions are at his turret he can't use the insane bursting potential he has as he can't push them back.[/quote]

[quote=cooper56]Currently most broken champ and and mage in the game...[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=albableat] [[Brand]]'s damage is pretty consistent. I'm speaking [[pillar of flame]] every ~5-6 seconds (considering blue buff/blue pot/masteries CDR), [[conflagration]] every 4 seconds. And that's a lot of AoE damage. On countrary, [[leblanc]]'s cooldowns may be lower (actually by late game she would have ~3 sec CD on Q and around 7 seconds on [[distortion]] and [[ethereal chains]]), but those spells are mostly SINGLE TARGET damage. It's harder and much less efficient for LB to stay within a teamfight then it is for a Brand as she is just not needed there. After you initially burst someone, it's better to gtfo and wait for spells being ready again to come and clean up after the TF has almost ended. Not saying that LB can't survive TF's and steal deal significant damage... It's just not the best way to exploit [[leblanc]]. If you initially plan on being in TF's a lot, pick someone more suited for that role like [[kennen]] or [[morgana]]. [/quote] So, you say Brand's E and W mean he has consistant damage but LeBlanc's QWE having similar cooldowns means she doesn't? LeB's Q and W have a really potent miniburst, and her E throws in some really nice utility, with a means of activating her sigils if it comes down to it. By your logic, both Brand and LeBlanc will be waiting similar times to re-join the team fight (unless for some reason you advise staying there doing nothing on Brand for a whole 5-6 or so seconds), whereas LeBlanc will wait for about 7 seconds, you said it yourself. Maybe 3 if she didn't use her E in the initial burst. Both are burst casters that have to wait a large amount of time to do more damage and both get better effects when skills are chained together, the only difference is that Brand is an AoE burst mage and LeBlanc is a single target burst. [quote=albableat] If you initially plan on being in TF's a lot, pick someone more suited for that role like [[kennen]] or [[morgana]]. [/quote] What is LeBlanc then, a splitpusher? She changes the course of a team fight by her insane burst. Everybody contributes to a team fight unless their main role is splitpushing. You don't need to do consistent AoE damage to be good in a team fight.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=cooper56] Currently most broken champ and and mage in the game... [/quote] Hence why he's seen at every tournament ever, right? Large burst, far too easy to counter.[/quote]

[quote=albableat]Just as I said, as LB, it's much better to wait on 14 seconds CD on ult and then come back to clean up, unless you can absolutely directly contribute to another important kill. After you kill the initial target, it's a 4v4 TF anyways. You aren't going to make it 5v4 if you are a [[leblanc]] with half her stuff on cooldowns. Considering an even situation, Q-W isn't going to be a good burst. You need the ultimate to do your job to the best possible. Another thing for any assassin is that being within enemy vision absolutely cripples your surprise factor. You have to rely on sudden initiation on [[leblanc]] and because of this, breaking vision is quite important. As Brand or whatever other AP carry you play, you shouldn't care about being within vision. You deal all the damage as long as you hit all of your skillshots. And your range is high enough to stay out of heavy CC reach. Doesn't matter if they see you or not. Therefore, complete disengaging from the fight isn't as important as it is for LB. PS. It's a [[viktor]] thread after all, I feel going way too off-topic... No problems about that?[/quote]

[quote=RCIX]For reference, max level Viktor laser is 110 mana cost. [quote=Xenasis] Compare him to Galio who can QE [/quote] 170 mana. [quote=Xenasis] Morde who can E/Q [/quote] Doesn't count because Morde wouldn't be a fair comparison to ANY normal caster. [quote=Xenasis] or Cass who can Q and W [/quote] 174 mana to 92.5 mana, depending on how many stacks of passive she has. But usually trending towards the former. Viktor's laser can 1shot caster minions around level 9 with death augment (assuming maxed laser), and instagib all minions once Viktor has his cap. He's a very strong and safe farmer. [quote=albableat] PS. It's a [[viktor]] thread after all, I feel going way too off-topic... No problems about that? [/quote] Eh, at least I started a good discussion. [quote=Xenasis] [quote=cooper56] Currently most broken champ and and mage in the game... [/quote] Hence why he's seen at every tournament ever, right? Large burst, far too easy to counter. [/quote] He isn't seen at tournaments because offhand the only high ELO player I know of who even runs Viktor is Scarra (maaaybe Ocelote or Salce? not sure) and no one at that level has bothered investing into him significantly. Anyway, the only real counter to Viktor is someone who can avoid his damage and throw a ton in his face (LB and Talon, post-6 kass if he somehow managed to survive that lane). Fizz might sorta be able to do it, but it's tricky given that Power Transfer is a guaranteed damage block for passive ST burn and laser can far outrange anything Fizz can do to poke.[/quote]