A thought I had about Viktor...

[quote=Xaioli]Not sure if this has been brought up but there's a bug with Viktor's ultimate where you can "double ult". It's a lot like Lee Sin's Double Tempest before it got nerfed. Yeah... double ult Viktor kinda one shots people so he's great for Solo Queue and pubstomping atm ;)[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=RCIX] For reference, max level Viktor laser is 110 mana cost. 170 mana. Doesn't count because Morde wouldn't be a fair comparison to ANY normal caster. 174 mana to 92.5 mana, depending on how many stacks of passive she has. But usually trending towards the former. Viktor's laser can 1shot caster minions around level 9 with death augment (assuming maxed laser), and instagib all minions once Viktor has his cap. He's a very strong and safe farmer. [/quote] It's not about mana costs. Nowadays your mid will get blue buff at level 7ish anyway. Before that, you have a LOT of mana, and, might I add, people with low CD spells such as Cass can push FAR harder than Viktor can then. Side note - before these mana costs you added up RANK 5 for each and every hero that wasn't Viktor, despite the fact that would require level 18 on Cass, level 13 at least on Galio, etc. Biased mana comparisons. Galio usually builds a chalice, and as said before, blue buff makes mana costs next to irrelevant. Morde completely does count. He IS a normal caster. There's no way to not acknowledge a counterpick just because 'oh well he's unorthodox so he doesn't count'. If she's pushing hard (which you should do against Viktor) then you will get the latter, and anyway as I've said, mana is irrelevant. Can one shot minions when Viktor gets his deathcap, sure, but so can most other heroes in the game. Before that, he cannot get many cs if the enemy player is half decent. I'd like to see you try and last hit at the tower at level 3 or so when Cass starts building up the momentum. [quote=RCIX] He isn't seen at tournaments because offhand the only high ELO player I know of who even runs Viktor is Scarra (maaaybe Ocelote or Salce? not sure) and no one at that level has bothered investing into him significantly. Anyway, the only real counter to Viktor is someone who can avoid his damage and throw a ton in his face (LB and Talon, post-6 kass if he somehow managed to survive that lane). Fizz might sorta be able to do it, but it's tricky given that Power Transfer is a guaranteed damage block for passive ST burn and laser can far outrange anything Fizz can do to poke. [/quote] Because he's easily counterpicked in tournament level play. He can stomp low elo or if they have already chosen their AP caster he can be a good counterpick, but, just like LeBlanc, there are far too many options to completely shut both of them down to be seen as a solid pick. Don't get me wrong, Viktor is NOT bad, just like LeBlanc, just there's no point making them a main hero at a competitive level when there's so many ways to shut him down.[/quote]

[quote=RCIX][quote=Xenasis] It's not about mana costs. Nowadays your mid will get blue buff at level 7ish anyway. Before that, you have a LOT of mana, and, might I add, people with low CD spells such as Cass can push FAR harder than Viktor can then. [/quote] I compared level 5 laser to level 5 other farming spells. *shrug* [quote=Xenasis] Galio usually builds a chalice, and as said before, blue buff makes mana costs next to irrelevant. [/quote] He's still forking over a ton of mana for a farming combo which doesn't become effective until Laser does for farm (AFAIK anyway). Even with chalice... [quote=Xenasis] Morde completely does count. He IS a normal caster. There's no way to not acknowledge a counterpick just because 'oh well he's unorthodox so he doesn't count'. [/quote] Morde is built around 2 things: pushing and harass. Comparing normal casters (I.E. ones with mana bars and such) to him is like comparing other support tanks to Alistar. [quote=Xenasis] Because he's easily counterpicked in tournament level play. He can stomp low elo or if they have already chosen their AP caster he can be a good counterpick, but, just like LeBlanc, there are far too many options to completely shut both of them down to be seen as a solid pick. Don't get me wrong, Viktor is NOT bad, just like LeBlanc, just there's no point making them a main hero at a competitive level when there's so many ways to shut him down. [/quote] LB, Talon, uhh maybe fizz.... Yeah. That's about it. I have the strong feeling you are basing your knowledge of Viktor on the few subpar players you've seen use him. He can hold his own or dominate in 80% of mid matchups, and is a very solid pick throughout the game. He's just not cass level super-safe. Yes, he doesn't handle super hard pushing too well, but then neither does Ryze or Fizz or Talon or Galio (he'll be OOM in 2 combos if he has to defend pushing early)... (BTW, what you said also applies to Ryze and a couple other popular high-elo mids)[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]*sigh* You have good guides but you're extremely biased and unyielding in this argument. I'll make one more post then sleep. "He's still forking over a ton of mana for a farming combo which doesn't become effective until Laser does for farm (AFAIK anyway). Even with chalice..." Actually, no. Galio's Q and E can hit all 6 minions, Laser can't unless you get some obscure angle. It's also possible to hit both minions and champions with it if you're lucky. Can't do that with Laser. "Morde is built around 2 things: pushing and harass. Comparing normal casters (I.E. ones with mana bars and such) to him is like comparing other support tanks to Alistar." Cass. Twisted Fate. Rumble. Anivia. Zilean. Mana is a non-issue. Using health is sometimes far more costly. Viktor's counterpicks include - Morde Cass Anivia (if she can handle pre-6) Galio Possibly Talon LB would be 50/50 depending on players And a few more I can't think of because it's late Fizz would probably get destroyed due to his reliance on being in one place (Gravity Field anyone) and reliance on being close range (Viktor's abilities are all relatively close ranges) As for Ryze - Ryze has better harass due to the fact his abilities cannot be dodged AND have a HIGHER RANGE (when it comes to Viktor's Q anyway), he has a FAR more reliable CC, better late game scaling due to the fact he gets bulky and a potent caster. Usually if they try and push the wave when you're Ryze you'll take a few Qs to the face (bare in mind they're low mana, too), Viktor can't reach, and unless you're standing exactly where the minions are in the middle of the lane, they can push and you either have to commit and you can't do anything about it.[/quote]

[quote=RCIX][quote=Xenasis] Viktor's counterpicks include - Morde [/quote] Haven't run this matchup but I think it's a lot less clear than you'd expect especially if Viktor buys Q augment and kites with Q spam. [quote=Xenasis] Cass [/quote] Either Q augment and dodge poison with speed buff or beat her at her own game with laser poke. [quote=Xenasis] Anivia (if she can handle pre-6) [/quote] Anivia is... I also have no experience with her. But from what I hear she's one of the best AP mids if you're good enough at using her skills. Point being, Aniv will roll anyone she can survive to 6 against. [quote=Xenasis] Galio [/quote] This is a general counterpick to AP mids, no? [quote=Xenasis] As for Ryze - Ryze has better harass due to the fact his abilities cannot be dodged AND have a HIGHER RANGE (when it comes to Viktor's Q anyway), he has a FAR more reliable CC, better late game scaling due to the fact he gets bulky and a potent caster. Usually if they try and push the wave when you're Ryze you'll take a few Qs to the face (bare in mind they're low mana, too), Viktor can't reach, and unless you're standing exactly where the minions are in the middle of the lane, they can push and you either have to commit and you can't do anything about it. [/quote] Max laser, poke without Ryze ever getting in range. Problem solved. Viktor also does exceptionally well against anyone who spreads out damage enough to get use out of Power Transfer shield, though I wouldn't recommend doing that against Ryze. [quote=Xenasis] *sigh* You have good guides but you're extremely biased and unyielding in this argument. [/quote] And it feels like you're very biased against Viktor for the sole reason that you haven't seen a really good one, which is a bit of a vicious cycle. People don't think he's good so if they do try him they don't put their full effort in, which causes his performance to be subpar, which reinforces the notion he's UP. *sigh*[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]i can't even follow this thread anymore[/quote]

[quote=Crows foot]Why would you ever max E first since q is his most potent poke AND gives him shield to sustain himself? As said about what is an ap carry, an ap carry is a person who builds ap and has as a goal to kill people. The role is carry, one pure ad carry on each team and one pure ap carry is the current meta. Now LeB is sort of different, not because of her cd's or her burst, but because she is used to shut the other ap carry down, and preferrably the ad as well if possible. So you have a LeB that goes in, comboes their annie, she is dead, you hang around in the back, then you suddenly go sigil and chains on their disruptor and you did more to that teamfight than any of your other team can do. In my mind that is carrying a team. And even if you are on cd you are a team presence, they know you are there and they will be scared of you. You can zone an ad carry by moving towards them, they know that early/midgame they have NOTHING to counter you with. Akali, Fizz, LeBlanc, Kassadin, all have high burst and all are meant to kill, and by killing specific targets they are meant to carry their teams. Ofc, lategame the adcarry is supposed to carry their team, but up until then your ap-carry mostly does the carrying.[/quote]

[quote=Lord CandyPants]Always wanted to try Victor but never did, mainly because he seemed very hard to do good with. Going to give it a try though and if I like it will try to main it, underplayed champs have the advantages of people not really knowing how to play against them.[/quote]

[quote=Pølsemanden][quote=Xaioli] Not sure if this has been brought up but there's a bug with Viktor's ultimate where you can "double ult". It's a lot like Lee Sin's Double Tempest before it got nerfed. Yeah... double ult Viktor kinda one shots people so he's great for Solo Queue and pubstomping atm ;) [/quote] I'm interested... Also, what does counter anivia anyways...[/quote]

[quote=CasterMaster]Counters to [[anivia]]? Man this is so easy. Mobile (high-mobility), high-ranged or out-burst champions. Examples: [[ahri]], [[xerath]], [[malzahar]], [[kassadin]], [[morgana]], [[fizz]], [[vladimir]], etc If that's enough for you =)[/quote]