Darius: OP or no?

[quote=JekeTeMata][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=JekeTeMata] [quote=BarbJ] [quote=JekeTeMata]I really can't understand how you can design an Execution skill and reward it with insta CD when killing, wich is what it is supposed to do. Imo Darius ult should not refresh on kill, in fact it should punish the user when fail to kill with it by an increased cooldown. Seriously, can you imagine Garen's ulti refreshing its CD when killing? or Riven's active part of her ulti refreshing CD on killing? Sounds stupid, that's Darius ulti.[/quote] The only reason that it is an execute is because of the refresh. It does not deal increased damage based on missing health like Riven or Garen. Removing the refresh from it would remove the execute. You'd be best off targetting one champion, the one with the most stacks, not the lowest health target anymore. [/quote] Really? Maybe I'm so dumb cause i thought that the massive amount of damage it provides is what makes of it a finisher/executer, like no low on health champ can escape from getting killed by it. So according to your reasoning, Karthus ulti isn't a finisher/executer at all cause it does not deal increased damage based on missing health like Riven's or Garen's ulti. Thanks for letting it clear. Targeting the lowest health champ, even without stacks will guarantee a kill and the consecuent refresh on cooldown, I'm sorry but just in case you didn't get my irony I'll tell you I can't agree with your statement. @GrandmasterD: Are you really defending the insta CD on uti? Imo this saying that an insta CD on Garen's ult would be ok not OP at all, a total joke. Just to illustrate: Imagine Zilean's ulti getting insta CD when if successfully revives an ally. Sounds dumb right? the same dumb is Darius ulti but with killing instead of with reviving... Can you see my point now? Just to make it clear: I'm not saying he is ultra OP in the sense of being uncounterable or unstoppable. Of course is easy to counterpick or shut him down fast in ranked games with coordinated teams. But this game isn't only about ranked and premades, some people like me enjoys playing normal games and Darius is making normal games not fun anymore... [/quote] Darius' ult is not comparable to Zilean's ult whatsoever. Darius' ult has only one goal: executing. This renders him incapable of using it until your team, presumably, is winning the fight. Additionally, it requires a proper amount of stacks before it actually deals damage. This ult has no use but to deal the final blow which gives it a very small window of opportunity and no use if you are losing the fight. In a 1v1 fight it is different since you don't necessarily want it to refresh but in teamfights it is far from a strong ult. It basically wins teamfights which are already won while Zilean's ult has the potential of turning lost teamfights into won teamfights. [/quote] Ok I agree with you forget about Zilean's comparison. Darius ult still broken, there is no reason for making from a finisher an easy-multikill finisher with that insta CD. What I mean is that the ability itself already has the capability to do huge amounts of damage. And talking about the stacks, it's a pure falacy, it already does a decent damage (considering is True Damage) with a decent scales without any stacks. So I really see no reason for giving it insta CD and less if the condition for it is to deal the killing blow, wich already it is designed to do pretty easily. In fact that insta CD would be more balanced on Garen (Magic Damage/No scaling) than on Darius, but still quite OP. I'm sorry but I don't really see any reason for that insta CD nor any benefit for the game. Seriously this is the most easy to troll with champ, normal games are full of kids Kill Stealing everyone just for the flames.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD]The CD refresh probably has no impact on the game whatsoever it's probably the easiest way of rewarding the player if they kill the target. A "pro" Darius player will probably not even use the ult to execute but simply use it to deal insane damage to a single target á la [[Cho'Gath]]. Also you forget that you can simply build some health and it already makes you harder to kill. [[Garen]]'s ult, on the other hand, scales off your missing health which is way harder to counter. And on your note on 'kids' stealing kills: In proper games no one will do it unless it doesn't matter and in low 'elo' normal games; no one should care.[/quote]

[quote=JekeTeMata][quote=GrandmasterD] The CD refresh probably has no impact on the game whatsoever it's probably the easiest way of rewarding the player if they kill the target. A "pro" Darius player will probably not even use the ult to execute but simply use it to deal insane damage to a single target á la [[Cho'Gath]]. Also you forget that you can simply build some health and it already makes you harder to kill. [[Garen]]'s ult, on the other hand, scales off your missing health which is way harder to counter. And on your note on 'kids' stealing kills: In proper games no one will do it unless it doesn't matter and in low 'elo' normal games; no one should care. [/quote] If as you say the CD refresh has no impact on the game then there is no reason to keep it there since it allows major trolling on normal games. And as it already does "insane damage" "à la [[Cho'Gath]]" it should be fine without that insta CD. I'm not asking for a refresh on [[Garen]]'s ult, I'm just trying to make you see why the insta CD on ult is OP from my point of view. I'd like to remind you that normal games are also part of the game, and some people like me who doesn't like the "stress" of rankings, or the long waits of normal-draft games, enjoy playing them and we are still part of the community and deserve consideration. Not only the people who play "proper games" as you call them, deserve consideration imo.[/quote]

[quote=FalseoGod]Normal games make Xin Zhao seem op simply because people dunno what kitting means nor just how vulnerable he is to CC. Riot can't go on a nerfing spree based on normal games or we might as well shut down akali, mordekaiser, fiora, trynda, jax, nocturne,... We're speaking of an environment where supports often take CS from the carry, and where a blitzcrank and a graves can wait 1 minute in a bush while I only last hit creeps so they can MAYBE grab me for a potential kill. Darius uses the fact that he's a new champ to fool less experienced players. Often, experienced players will also start testing him in normals before taking to draft and ranked. Chill. He's balanced. He has 1000 great solotop picks to go against him anyway.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=JekeTeMata] [quote=GrandmasterD] The CD refresh probably has no impact on the game whatsoever it's probably the easiest way of rewarding the player if they kill the target. A "pro" Darius player will probably not even use the ult to execute but simply use it to deal insane damage to a single target á la [[Cho'Gath]]. Also you forget that you can simply build some health and it already makes you harder to kill. [[Garen]]'s ult, on the other hand, scales off your missing health which is way harder to counter. And on your note on 'kids' stealing kills: In proper games no one will do it unless it doesn't matter and in low 'elo' normal games; no one should care. [/quote] If as you say the CD refresh has no impact on the game then there is no reason to keep it there since it allows major trolling on normal games. And as it already does "insane damage" "à la [[Cho'Gath]]" it should be fine without that insta CD. I'm not asking for a refresh on [[Garen]]'s ult, I'm just trying to make you see why the insta CD on ult is OP from my point of view. I'd like to remind you that normal games are also part of the game, and some people like me who doesn't like the "stress" of rankings, or the long waits of normal-draft games, enjoy playing them and we are still part of the community and deserve consideration. Not only the people who play "proper games" as you call them, deserve consideration imo. [/quote] I said that no one should really care about so-called kill stealing and RIOT should not change a champ because it could be used in a way people find annoying. A champ just shouldn't be changed just because people can troll with it; that just doesn't make sense. To me, the refresh should be changed with something more fun; I agree on that part but I don't find this mechanic OP. I think this mechanic is just a result of a lack of imagination and it results in stupid gameplay. Darius is just another [[Fiora]] in my opinion: seems OP at first but turns out useless against people who actually know how to play against him. However, this is no reason for changing/nerfing the champion.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000][quote=FalseoGod] Normal games make Xin Zhao seem op simply because people dunno what kitting means nor just how vulnerable he is to CC. Riot can't go on a nerfing spree based on normal games or we might as well shut down akali, mordekaiser, fiora, trynda, jax, nocturne, [/quote] The funny thing is that every champion you mentioned here has been massively nerfed at some point except Fiora. Xin especially was nerfed over and over again, to the point he's now useless.[/quote]

[quote=JekeTeMata]He might be balanced, his ulti not, and there is no reason to have that insta CD, at least I haven't seen any proper reason for it yet. I'm just talking about the ulti, champ is ok as I like design and skillset, but I don't like imba CD on ulti that's all, and by the moment nobody gave me a decent reason to not consider it imba. Plus he will keep being practically the same strong without that characteristic, so I really can't see why people keep defending it. Probably easy multikil is fun... Of course multikill is fun, happened to me as Riven killing 2 guys with the same Wind Slash but that's hard to make and requires mostly a coincidence than more than 2 guys are low enough on health and grouped. With Darius is as easy to focus one by one...[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD]The insta refresh isn't necessary and is a stupid mechanic, agreed. However, that doesn't make it OP imo; it simply makes it annoying.[/quote]

[quote=Arcana3][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=JekeTeMata] My personal opinion is that the champ is strong, but that ulti is extremely OP imo. I really can't understand how you can design an Execution skill and reward it with insta CD when killing, wich is what it is supposed to do. Imo Darius ult should not refresh on kill, in fact it should punish the user when fail to kill with it by an increased cooldown. Seriously, can you imagine Garen's ulti refreshing its CD when killing? or Riven's active part of her ulti refreshing CD on killing? Sounds stupid, that's Darius ulti. Apart from this I like the champion idea and skillset, and I will probably purchase him if he gets balanced, but I don't like to abuse OP stuff. [/quote] His ultimate isn't OP since it has the sole purpose of executing people and doing it again. This gives it no utility and a very specific window of opportunity. Additionally, in order for the ultimate to actually work as an execute; he needs to prepare his target with sufficient stacks of [[Hemorrhage]]. In lane, the ultimate is very strong but in teamfights it serves no other purpose but to clean up. [/quote] The amount of time it takes to get stacks of [[Hemorrhage]] on one champion, doesn't take that long. [[Daruis]] can just grap, 1 stack, Spin, another, W, another, AA, and then R. Even if not at full stacks of [[Hemorrhage]] the True damage just dealt (At Max) 800+ True damage... And if they died, well uh, your screwed. The problem with him, is that he can GET THOSE STACKS way to easily. Yes he is an Executioner, but that doesn't mean he should just deal 800 true damage 1 go. And for team fight presence? Psh, get rid of the AD carry or AP carry, or both and die, well guess what, your team cleans up... So yeah... He's pretty op. No one in the game SHOULD be able to do that much true damage, in such a short amount of time. And from my knowledge the Ulti CAN crit... So yeah >.>[/quote]

[quote=JekeTeMata][quote=GrandmasterD] The insta refresh isn't necessary and is a stupid mechanic, agreed. However, that doesn't make it OP imo; it simply makes it annoying. [/quote] OK, I do call it OP :D[/quote]