Did the change make Xin Zhao Viable/OP?
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DuffTime wrote:
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This'll be hard, Duff, since I know from other threads that you're planning to kill yourself over LW/TBC stupidity.
Quoted:
But armor pen from runes would just take everything into even more of a favor of TBC and/or ghostblade. I honestly don't think i would take 9 in offense anyways, so that doesn't really matter either.
Actually, some math I've done in the past has seemed to indicate that having other forms of reduction and penetration, either flat or percentage, actually lower the armor value where LW surpasses TBC. I can replicate it here, if you really want, but the post will probably be longer than anyone is interested in reading.
Quoted:
And for assasination TBC/Ghostblade is waaaaaahaaaay better. Since you want flat reduction against squishy carries. Charge - AA - Q=almost immediate 3 charges on TBC. Even if not tbc then ghostblade.
So, two things about this.
First, in order to maximize damage output with this scenario, you'd have to Charge, AA, get at least two hits of Q, then ult. This will probably take about two seconds, all told, so you need to be sure that you won't be CC'd during the duration. If you ult earlier (which I think likely, but I can't be sure because I don't play Xin myself), you do less damage. I can run some simple numbers with a sample build to ballpark armor values for about what armor value it'd be worth making the switch, but I expect something around 120, which is basically anyone with a GA.
Second, Ghostblade is a pretty terrible item for dealing with armor. It's more expensive than LW for less penetration than either LW or TBC provide. If a target is so freakin' squishy that the 20 armor penetration is really worth a sizable damage buff against them, why are you worried about their armor?
OTGBionicArm wrote: Armored wimminz = badass.
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lifebaka wrote:
This'll be hard, Duff, since I know from other threads that you're planning to kill yourself over LW/TBC stupidity.
Actually, some math I've done in the past has seemed to indicate that having other forms of reduction and penetration, either flat or percentage, actually lower the armor value where LW surpasses TBC. I can replicate it here, if you really want, but the post will probably be longer than anyone is interested in reading.
So, two things about this.
First, in order to maximize damage output with this scenario, you'd have to Charge, AA, get at least two hits of Q, then ult. This will probably take about two seconds, all told, so you need to be sure that you won't be CC'd during the duration. If you ult earlier (which I think likely, but I can't be sure because I don't play Xin myself), you do less damage. I can run some simple numbers with a sample build to ballpark armor values for about what armor value it'd be worth making the switch, but I expect something around 120, which is basically anyone with a GA.
Second, Ghostblade is a pretty terrible item for dealing with armor. It's more expensive than LW for less penetration than either LW or TBC provide. If a target is so freakin' squishy that the 20 armor penetration is really worth a sizable damage buff against them, why are you worried about their armor?
The last bit is actually exactly where i'm going from. You want to stack flat penetration to assassinate low armor targets.
70 armor ashe(for example)
70*0,85=59,5 - after this point you want to be able to mitigate this to 0 because every point of armor we reduce/penetrate the more affective the arpen/reduction is.
With a tbc on 2 stacks for example:
59,5-30(from tbc)-25(from runes) would render poor as he with 4,5 armor left, rendering her with almost armor whatsoever making the armor penetration worth it.
Am i just being an ignorant fool? Because this is the exact same principle i use when i play wukong, and it seems to be winning me games just fine.
Ty MM and Blood for the sigs :3 | Rammus is comming back - heard it here first!
"Carrying"-guide | My reviewservice
"Carrying"-guide | My reviewservice
Quoted:
The last bit is actually exactly where i'm going from. You want to stack flat penetration to assassinate low armor targets.
70 armor ashe(for example)
70*0,85=59,5 - after this point you want to be able to mitigate this to 0 because every point of armor we reduce/penetrate the more affective the arpen/reduction is.
With a tbc on 2 stacks for example:
59,5-30(from tbc)-25(from runes) would render poor as he with 4,5 armor left, rendering her with almost armor whatsoever making the armor penetration worth it.
Am i just being an ignorant fool? Because this is the exact same principle i use when i play wukong, and it seems to be winning me games just fine.
Woah, woah, woah. Are we talking a 70 armor Ashe in late game, or in mid game? Because if we're talking late game, no one is going to have under 100 armor. No one. And if we're talking mid game, then what other item are you sacrificing for TBC?
OTGBionicArm wrote: Armored wimminz = badass.
My posts may be long. If this bothers you, don't read them.
My posts may be long. If this bothers you, don't read them.
NicknameMy wrote:
BTW: Flat Reduction is factored in before % Reduction.
(70-30)*0,85-25=9
Neither of our calculations are correct.
The precise calculation would be:
(70-15)*0,85-15-25=6,75
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"Carrying"-guide | My reviewservice
you charge and challenge them and make your first TBC proc.
That TBC proc is applied first - then the Challenge passive. Everything after that is a new effect meaning that it is building on all previous reductions.
That TBC proc is applied first - then the Challenge passive. Everything after that is a new effect meaning that it is building on all previous reductions.
Ty MM and Blood for the sigs :3 | Rammus is comming back - heard it here first!
"Carrying"-guide | My reviewservice
"Carrying"-guide | My reviewservice
Quoted:
you charge and challenge them and make your first TBC proc.
That TBC proc is applied first - then the Challenge passive. Everything after that is a new effect meaning that it is building on all previous reductions.
Well, except that according to your logic, Challenge would be applied first because it landed first.
Regardless, I just tested with Urgot, and that's not how it works. I landed his 20% armor debuff first, then hit with TBC, and TBC was still applied first.
OTGBionicArm wrote: Armored wimminz = badass.
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This is a vast oversimplification of it, though. You need to take into account armor pen from runes, armor pen masteries, and even how much AD and AS you have. Plus, it takes time to stack TBC, while it doesn't for LW.
Honestly, I can think of scenarios where I would suggest either on Xin. For assassination, or against relatively tanky teams, LW will probably be better. For offtanking or being a bruiser, TBC might be better (I say "might" due largely to the comparative cost). Against teams who are almost all fairly squishy and where Xin plans to do sustained damage, TBC will probably be better.
But armor pen from runes would just take everything into even more of a favor of TBC and/or ghostblade. I honestly don't think i would take 9 in offense anyways, so that doesn't really matter either.
And for assasination TBC/Ghostblade is waaaaaahaaaay better. Since you want flat reduction against squishy carries. Charge - AA - Q=almost immediate 3 charges on TBC. Even if not tbc then ghostblade.