To wriggle's or not to wriggle's.

[quote=Pølsemanden]So i've seen some people not go for wriggle's on some AD-champs and just stay at the madred's and go straight for AD/A BT rush. My perspective is from [[Shaco]] since i'm currently mashing up a guide on him and i saw a guy on the enemy team with shaco forego the wriggle's and just go madreds. Lets look at the pro's/cons of having a wriggles +A ward, you really need your gold early game on shaco and making the mid, top or support walk around warding the enemy jungle simply puts too much pressure on them, a definite+ +Better proc +you don't waste any of the stats since you need the armor for dives, need the AD for damage and need the lifesteal for not spamming pots. -You lose the vamp scepter, you could've gotten more ad early. All of this looks like it's an easy win for the wriggle's but mind you, 900 gold's a lot. So i'll compare A wriggle's to 2 scenarios: Keeping a vamp scepter and Fuck sustain get pots. Keeping a vamp scepter, you pay 100 gold for upgrading from vamp scepter to wriggle's and let's see what stats we get from this: 5 AD=200 gold 5 armor=100 gold Ward= 75 gold(assuming you'll put down 1 ward with it, totally) Also an improved proc against minions, let's credit this with 100 gold. Soo you numbskull, for 100 gold you get for at least 475 worth of gold, on a early game champion you need that shit. If you went as far as the vamp scepter, upgrade that shit. [u][b]-375 in stats[/b][/u] Fuck sustain, buy pots.(i'm assuming you need at least 3 pots to be even remotely as healthy as a wriggle's early. So for 900 gold we get: 20 AD=800 Pots=105 Add to this, your proc and dragon control is severely worsened. so you gain 5 AD +200 You lose 5 armor -100 You lose dragon control and the proc, earlier valued at -100 losing that ward son -75 On the long run we're losing out on the lifesteal but i'm focusing on the early game so not too bothered bout that, although it still counts for 400 gold against this. So again, gtfo you numbskull get the wriggle's if you got the madred's. [b][u]-475 in stats at least.[/u][/b] TL;DR. Get wriggle's on ruce, shaco and pretty much any jungler that uses AD and Lifesteal.[/quote]

[quote=Pheyniex]isn't a ward worth it? [[Lee Sin]], [[Jax]] and [[Katarina]] love wards.[/quote]

[quote=DarkPercy]If you already have built-in sustain you don't need the lifesteal. If you feel like being really tanky as early as possible you might wanna just get Madred's and then tank items. I know some pros get [[madred's razors]] --> [[sunfire cape]] on [[hecarim]], [[lee sin]] and [[rammus]]. There could be more.[/quote]

[quote=CounterSnipe]Madreds is really all you need to sustain in jungle to be honest. Consider that almost all of the damage in the camp is centered around the larger creep, so if you, as shaco, just box that creep and kill it then you won't take much damage anyway. Also, people have been shifting from getting wriggle's to opting for Madreds + Spirit Stone. This is because people know that wriggle's has its limits, and it usually thrown out late game anyway. So the idea behind building SS + M.R. is that you're going to be able to fast clear your jungle and accomplish monster objectives, while still having the ability to build into a strong late game Spirit Stone upgrade. Once you get your upgrade and you're about to buy a final item in the super late game, just scrap the Madred's. I think it's better to forego the wriggles, personally, unless you're going to be using it to strictly counter jungle.[/quote]

[quote=BlueArtist][quote=CounterSnipe] Madreds is really all you need to sustain in jungle to be honest. Consider that almost all of the damage in the camp is centered around the larger creep, so if you, as shaco, just box that creep and kill it then you won't take much damage anyway. Also, people have been shifting from getting wriggle's to opting for Madreds + Spirit Stone. This is because people know that wriggle's has its limits, and it usually thrown out late game anyway. So the idea behind building SS + M.R. is that you're going to be able to fast clear your jungle and accomplish monster objectives, while still having the ability to build into a strong late game Spirit Stone upgrade. Once you get your upgrade and you're about to buy a final item in the super late game, just scrap the Madred's. I think it's better to forego the wriggles, personally, unless you're going to be using it to strictly counter jungle. [/quote] Quite true, now that Season 3 you have many new item for the jungle, Wriggles isnt the best now. You really don't need it, buy damaged-based items would be better.[/quote]

[quote=Phoenix0000ff]I'm going to play with the words of saint vicious high elo jungler. If you can get it before 8 minutes it isn't bad because it will make up the cost from the free wards. We can say that early gold can snowball into late gold though but an early wriggle procs in the jungle can be pretty good if gotten very early. I used it a lot at the start of season 3 and the ward has won me many games but overall I think the item is a bit weak and it needs a buff.[/quote]

[quote=Joshified]The [[Vampiric Scepter]] is just SO expensive now! I believe it is still quite impressive on someone like [[Lee sin]] due to the raw trading power it gives him and that free wards saves him so much. But on anyone else I really don't think it is worth the gold to spend, you can still maintain jungle clear with [[Spirit Stone]] or just the [[Madred's razors]]. Wriggles is just to expensive for what it gives. Even on [[Lee sin]] it isn't considered core anymore.[/quote]

[quote=Thalia Kael]I like the old scepter better you need to spend an extra 350 from the old one just to get that lifesteal, which is pretty much what you want from the item. I rarely buy it for that 10 AD since it is the same as the longsword that you bought to build it. And old scepter had 15% lifesteal (I think?), which in some cases/by some preferences makes the old 450 gold item better than the 800 gold current one.[/quote]

[quote=Drake Skormo]just a thought on the topic of ward loving jungles like lee sin. The Sightstone only costs 50 more gold (if you only get razor) and gives you 2 wards (which you can move if you need to jump) and still gives you some bulk. You can also upgrade it or just sell it later if you really need to. Still feel like the new spirit stone items are better overall but just a thought.[/quote]