Banner of Command on Supports?

[quote=sirell][quote=Mooninites] [spoiler]It's good in siege comps. But as others have said [[Morellonomicon]] is just a better alternative. Looking at gold efficiency though it's not that good. 80 AP plus 20% CDR for roughly 2400 gold. It's really hard to place a tangible gold value on the Siege minion and damage increase for minions. I think it's fair to say that the promotion is equivalent to that of an inhibitor minion, but difficult to say if it is or what it's worth. Looking at the raw stats of 80 AP and 20% CDR: 80 AP is roughly 1720 gold worth of stats (taking two [[blasting wand]]s Because there are no items that give just CDR, I'll look at CDR via the [[Fiendish Codex]] which offers 10% CDR. We have to remove the AP. I could use [[Amplifying Tome]] but since we used [[Blasting Wand]] for the above Ability Power to gold ratio i'll stick with it. Blasting Wand - 40 AP, 860 gold. 860 / 4 = 215. 215 * 3 = 645. That gives us the 30 AP. So [[Fiendish Codex]] is 820 gold. 820 - 645 = 175 gold for 10% CDR. Double it to reach 20% CDR = 350 gold. 350 gold + 1720 gold = 2070 gold. The item itself costs 2400 gold. You're not even breaking even in terms of stats. You're essentially paying 330 gold for a promoted minion and 15% increased minion damage, which is conditional to you standing in range of minions. Now I think the promoted minion is quite good, don't get me wrong, I just don't think it's worth the item slot especially when you're not breaking even on gold. Especially consider this in a team fight say near baron, the increased minion damage and cannon minion will have no factor. I think it's also important to compared to [[morellonomicon]]'s efficiency. [[Morellonomicon]] offers 75 AP, 20% CDR, and 12 mana regen for 2200 gold. Plus a healing reduction, which is pretty intangible. Using the same model: Using [[Blasting Wand]] as the standard for AP to gold efficiency: 40 AP = 860 gold. 860 / 8 = 107.5 (dividing by 8 to get it into integrals of 5 AP rather than 10). 107.5 * 7 = 752.5 + 860 = 1612.5. We've already determined that 20% CDR is roughly 350 gold worth of stats so 1612.5 + 350 = 1962.5 Using a [[faerie charm]] to measure mana regen to gold. 3 mana regen is worth roughly 180 gold. 180 * 4 = 720 (3 mana regen * 4 = 12 mana regen). 1962.5 + 720 = 2682.5 gold in terms of raw stats > plus whatever gold value healing reduction has. Healing reduction has more of a tangible value than % damage increase to minions plus a cannon minion will have, but it can also vary widely depending on the enemy champions that have grievous wounds applied to them and how efficiently you can apply them. I.E. applying it to a [[Dr. Mundo]] with ult on is much more efficient than say a [[Karthus]] without spell vamp or baron. Also someone like [[Zyra]] can apply the debuff much easier than say [[Nami]]. It's kind of impossible to put gold values on that type of stuff. But none-the-less you're still getting way more stats than you pay for. Obviously this isn't perfect math, because as you can see there is a difference in gold efficiency between items, such as [[Blasting Wand]] and [[Amplifying Tome]], but this is pretty standard, because the more gold you invest in an item, generally the more gold/stat efficient it is (although not always the case). Plus, looking at [[Morellonomicon]] is 12 Mana Regen really 720 gold worth of stats? Theoretically yes, but [[Faerie Charm]] is pretty inefficient and there are a lot of times in which mana regen has no value at all, such as when your mana bar is full or in combat, but at the same time you could make the argument that CDR really isn't effective unless you use spells, but that's a bit of a slight and makes this shit way too complicated. [b]tl;dr - [[Banner of Command]] doesn't even break even in terms of raw stats per gold, you have to value the % damage increase and super minion as 330 gold worth of intangible stuff. Compare that to something like [[Morellonomicon]] where you get more raw stats than you pay for plus healing reduction.[/b] So would I build it? Probably not unless I was in a siege comp, it's not efficient and it's not practical in most situations which makes it pretty bad Please let me know if I did my math wrong too[/spoiler] [/quote] +rep[/quote]

[quote=DKitten][quote=Mooninites]this is pretty standard, because the more gold you invest in an item, generally the more gold/stat efficient it is (although not always the case)[/quote] That's not correct. The lowest-value items ([[Long Sword]], [[Amplifying Tome]], etc) tend to be the most stat/gold efficient because they're the least SLOT efficient for the stat. So the more gold you invest in an item, the LESS stat/gold efficient it is, but the more SLOT efficient it is.[/quote]

[quote=Barph][quote=DKitten] [quote=Mooninites]this is pretty standard, because the more gold you invest in an item, generally the more gold/stat efficient it is (although not always the case)[/quote] That's not correct. The lowest-value items ([[Long Sword]], [[Amplifying Tome]], etc) tend to be the most stat/gold efficient because they're the least SLOT efficient for the stat. So the more gold you invest in an item, the LESS stat/gold efficient it is, but the more SLOT efficient it is. [/quote] Amp tome is the least efficient AP item[/quote]

[quote=NorthernRedStar][quote=Fat_fast] Banner is a bad option. Since to maximize it's effect you need to do it when they are really close to your side of the base, to amass minion, then stage a clash/skirmish elsewhere while the empowered do their thing, which is far inferior compare to how a top laner can steamroll a lane. It may work in premade but a big niche IMO. Morello is a better option, still quite a niche since most support almost cap their CDR with talisman and mastery already, very helpful when you are dealing with Mundo or Fiora. If you wish for some damage, a liandry is more suitable, CDR then go for locket. [/quote] [[Morellonomicon]] is not that niche item, the healing reduction is extremely useful. And the amount of raw stats you gain from it is extremely cost/slot efficient.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=DKitten] [quote=Mooninites]this is pretty standard, because the more gold you invest in an item, generally the more gold/stat efficient it is (although not always the case)[/quote] That's not correct. The lowest-value items ([[Long Sword]], [[Amplifying Tome]], etc) tend to be the most stat/gold efficient because they're the least SLOT efficient for the stat. So the more gold you invest in an item, the LESS stat/gold efficient it is, but the more SLOT efficient it is. [/quote] To get 80 AP: 1 [[Needlessly Large Rod]] = 1600g 2 [[Blasting Wand]]s = 1720g 4 [[Amplifying Tome]] = 1740g To get 50 AD: 1 [[B. F. Sword]] = 1550g 2 [[Pickaxe]] = 1750g 5 [[Long Sword]]s = 1800g[/quote]

[quote=Toshabi][quote=Mooninites] [quote=DKitten] [quote=Mooninites]this is pretty standard, because the more gold you invest in an item, generally the more gold/stat efficient it is (although not always the case)[/quote] That's not correct. The lowest-value items ([[Long Sword]], [[Amplifying Tome]], etc) tend to be the most stat/gold efficient because they're the least SLOT efficient for the stat. So the more gold you invest in an item, the LESS stat/gold efficient it is, but the more SLOT efficient it is. [/quote] To get 80 AP: 1 [[Needlessly Large Rod]] = 1600g 2 [[Blasting Wand]]s = 1720g 4 [[Amplifying Tome]] = 1740g To get 50 AD: 1 [[B. F. Sword]] = 1550g 2 [[Pickaxe]] = 1750g 5 [[Long Sword]]s = 1800g [/quote] This is not correct. To get 80+ AP 1. [[Mejai's Soulstealer]] 1235g To get 50+ ad 1. [[Sword of the Occult]] 1369g [h1][b]:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B[/b][/h1][/quote]

[quote=Nebrasketball]If you're trying to replicate GSG's heimer fast push it would be okay if you could actually buy it.[/quote]

[quote=FantasySniper]Only efficient on champs that possess a constant supply of minions such as [[Zyra]] or [[Malzahar]], otherwise you should get something else entirely.[/quote]